School Nurse Wanna Be's

[Katy]

Okay, so why when I am at a local camp or school function, and I look to see the First-Aid tent and clinic center. I start to talk to the person giving care, and come to find out they are an EMT-B! :glare: I'm sorry, but there is something very wrong with an EMT-B functioning as a School Nurse or Camp Nurse, I wouldn't even put a Paramedic in this job because they aren't a "nurse" first of all, and second, I'm all for EMS being techs and assistants in the clinics, but to be the primary care giver in a education setting ?h34r: What do you all think ? Any experience with this ?

 

[MedicBender]

What exactly do you find "very wrong" with an EMT-B or Paramedic providing medical stand-by at a camp or school function?

What life saving treatment is the nurse going to deliver that the EMT or Paramedic can't?

 

[usalsfyre]

Right, because all a paramedic is good for is providing less than nursing care .

First off you mention first-aid tents. What is it exactly you think an EMT class consist of? Secondly, success in these roles depends entirely on the person. The oil and gas and industrial settings have been using paramedics in clinic roles for decades with satisfactory results. Sure I can think of a lot of paramedics I don't want in this role, but I can think of a whole lit of nurses to. Finally, how do you reconcile the fact that my initial education and continuing education since graduation have both been longer and far more in depth than what the typical LVN receives, yet they draw no ire from you?

I agree, EMT-Basic is a little light to be used in a "school nurse" role. But I fail to see why an appropriately educated paramedic couldn't function as or more successfully as an RN or LVN in this role.

 

[Katy]

What exactly do you find "very wrong" with an EMT-B or Paramedic providing medical stand-by at a camp or school function?

What life saving treatment is the nurse going to deliver that the EMT or Paramedic can't?

First off, School Nurses do the following that EMT's and Paramedics don't do on a regular basis;
- Teach Health classes and public speaking on health
- Patient education
- Hygiene and oral care
- Massive recording keeping
- Vaccinations
- Screenings
Now, are you seriously going to say that an EMT and possibly a Paramedic has the knowledge to do all of the above ? I'm to doubt.
And don't take it the wrong way, I'm all for them standing by, but when they,
1. Portray the role of a "School Nurse"
2. Don't have a higher medical authority or an actual School Nurse on hand
All these can have bad consequences. What if all of a sudden a student faints at a school even and an EMT can't figure out why they have ? The School Nurse may say, " Yes, Bobby Joe has hypoglycemia, we have to make sure he eats some at lunch and such, lets get a BLG over here. " The EMT that isn't there all the time with the students wouldn't have this knowledge on file or on their agenda of things to make sure of throughout the day. Same with a camp nurse.

 

[Shishkabob]

but to be the primary care giver in a education setting

You're new to EMS, so I'll give you a pass on this one. You're neither an EMT nor a Paramedic, let alone an RN, and you think you know what they are capable of, what they know, and what they can do?


Look up Community Paramedicine. That is precisely what Paramedics do, and in all the places that do it, it's a resounding success. Eagle County, Colorado does it. Fort Worth does it. Plenty of places do it and it's shown to work, and work damn well.

2. Don't have a higher medical authority or an actual School Nurse on hand.

And nurses don't have a higher medical authority than a Paramedic.

 

[usafmedic45]

You're new to EMS, so I'll give you a pass on this one. You're neither an EMT nor a Paramedic, let alone an RN, and you think you know what they are capable of, what the know, and what they can do?


Look up Community Paramedicine. That is precisely what Paramedics do, and in all the places that do it, it's a resounding success. Eagle County, Colorado does it. Fort Worth does it. Plenty of places do it and it's shown to work, and work damn well.

I was about to point out the irony of a first responder criticizing someone with more training, not a lot more, but still a higher level of provider.

 

[Katy]

Right, because all a paramedic is good for is providing less than nursing care .

First off you mention first-aid tents. What is it exactly you think an EMT class consist of? Secondly, success in these roles depends entirely on the person. The oil and gas and industrial settings have been using paramedics in clinic roles for decades with satisfactory results. Sure I can think of a lot of paramedics I don't want in this role, but I can think of a whole lit of nurses to. Finally, how do you reconcile the fact that my initial education and continuing education since graduation have both been longer and far more in depth than what the typical LVN receives, yet they draw no ire from you?

I agree, EMT-Basic is a little light to be used in a "school nurse" role. But I fail to see why an appropriately educated paramedic couldn't function as or more successfully as an RN or LVN in this role.

I didn't actually mean a "first-aid" tent, these tents are the area for medical attention in the facility. They have capabilities far more than first-aid, my apologies. And I have never seen a LPN in the school systems that functions solely without RN supervision. Because they don't have the proper certification and education. School Nurses in my area have to take special courses in order to be available for the job.

 

[JPINFV]

Look up Community Paramedicine. That is precisely what Paramedics do, and in all the places that do it, it's a resounding success. Eagle County, Colorado does it. Fort Worth does it. Plenty of places do it and it's shown to work, and work damn well.

...and it's not something that your average paramedic is going to be doing. If they're taking the first paramedic that applies to a situation that requires more than emergency medical care, then it is inappropriate.

 

[Katy]

You're new to EMS, so I'll give you a pass on this one. You're neither an EMT nor a Paramedic, let alone an RN, and you think you know what they are capable of, what they know, and what they can do?


Look up Community Paramedicine. That is precisely what Paramedics do, and in all the places that do it, it's a resounding success. Eagle County, Colorado does it. Fort Worth does it. Plenty of places do it and it's shown to work, and work damn well.





And nurses don't have a higher medical authority than a Paramedic.

Never said I claimed to know any of that, I am simply pointing out my opinion, and why I have a problem with it. Like I said, my main concern is a medic or EMT calling themselves a "School Nurse", which is illegal in my area I know of. And again, I am talking of in an actual school, school-related even, and camp.

 

[BEorP]

First off, School Nurses do the following that EMT's and Paramedics don't do on a regular basis;
- Teach Health classes and public speaking on health
- Patient education
- Hygiene and oral care
- Massive recording keeping
- Vaccinations
- Screenings
Now, are you seriously going to say that an EMT and possibly a Paramedic has the knowledge to do all of the above ? I'm to doubt.
And don't take it the wrong way, I'm all for them standing by, but when they,
1. Portray the role of a "School Nurse"
2. Don't have a higher medical authority or an actual School Nurse on hand
All these can have bad consequences. What if all of a sudden a student faints at a school even and an EMT can't figure out why they have ? The School Nurse may say, " Yes, Bobby Joe has hypoglycemia, we have to make sure he eats some at lunch and such, lets get a BLG over here. " The EMT that isn't there all the time with the students wouldn't have this knowledge on file or on their agenda of things to make sure of throughout the day. Same with a camp nurse.

If you have a problem with an EMT who presents themselves as a nurse, I can understand. In terms of the public health type stuff, you are correct that a nurse is probably better suited.

What I cannot agree with though is that somehow Bobby Joe is going to be at risk because he is treated by an EMS provider rather than a nurse. EMS providers treat unconscious patients everyday without having a clue what their history is and any competent provider would quickly discover and treat the hypoglycemia.

Asking questions is always good. We need more people willing to question things in EMS in North America, but I think you will see with time that there is no risk to the patient here as you suggest.

 

[LucidResq]

Funding comes to mind. Unfortunately there are schools here that can't even provide desks for all students. They literally have kids sitting on the floor. If they can't hire a full-time RN... that's ok. I'd rather they invest any available money in providing a quality education. Although it's a great resource to have at a school, an RN is not necessary by any means. If they can't afford that, I suppose a good EMT or medic is better than nothing.

 

[DESERTDOC]

Okay, so why when I am at a local camp or school function, and I look to see the First-Aid tent and clinic center. I start to talk to the person giving care, and come to find out they are an EMT-B! :glare: I'm sorry, but there is something very wrong with an EMT-B functioning as a School Nurse or Camp Nurse, I wouldn't even put a Paramedic in this job because they aren't a "nurse" first of all, and second, I'm all for EMS being techs and assistants in the clinics, but to be the primary care giver in a education setting ?h34r: What do you all think ? Any experience with this ?

School nurse wanna be's. The title to your thread says it all.

Perhaps you need to seek out more information about what it is that EMT's and Paramedics do. Perhaps you should learn about Remote Medicine and what EMT's and Paramedics do. Perhaps, you should find out why Bechtel, KBR etc all use Paramedics for their remote operations. By remote, I mean Siberia, the Arctic etc.

Explain to me why Paramedics should not be functioning as the primary care provider? Chapter and verse please.

 

[Katy]

If you have a problem with an EMT who presents themselves as a nurse, I can understand. In terms of the public health type stuff, you are correct that a nurse is probably better suited.

What I cannot agree with though is that somehow Bobby Joe is going to be at risk because he is treated by an EMS provider rather than a nurse. EMS providers treat unconscious patients everyday without having a clue what their history is and any competent provider would quickly discover and treat the hypoglycemia.

Asking questions is always good. We need more people willing to question things in EMS in North America, but I think you will see with time that there is no risk to the patient here as you suggest.

Yes, I understand all of this as well. All I was pointing out there was that the Nurse that is constantly documenting and watching that patient throughout the day would be a step ahead of the EMS who have no clue about that patient with a medical illness. Could save time, which is crucial. Again, I'm all for them being there and at a scene, but when they claim to be Nurses and don't go through the day-to-day work of a School Nurse.

 

[DESERTDOC]

First off, School Nurses do the following that EMT's and Paramedics don't do on a regular basis;
- Teach Health classes and public speaking on health
- Patient education
- Hygiene and oral care
- Massive recording keeping
- Vaccinations
- Screenings
Now, are you seriously going to say that an EMT and possibly a Paramedic has the knowledge to do all of the above ? I'm to doubt.
And don't take it the wrong way, I'm all for them standing by, but when they,
1. Portray the role of a "School Nurse"
2. Don't have a higher medical authority or an actual School Nurse on hand
All these can have bad consequences. What if all of a sudden a student faints at a school even and an EMT can't figure out why they have ? The School Nurse may say, " Yes, Bobby Joe has hypoglycemia, we have to make sure he eats some at lunch and such, lets get a BLG over here. " The EMT that isn't there all the time with the students wouldn't have this knowledge on file or on their agenda of things to make sure of throughout the day. Same with a camp nurse.

You really do not know what you are talking about.

A nurse works at my discretion and under my direction. Period, end story.

 

[fast65]

First off, School Nurses do the following that EMT's and Paramedics don't do on a regular basis;
- Teach Health classes and public speaking on health
- Patient education
- Hygiene and oral care
- Massive recording keeping
- Vaccinations
- Screenings
Now, are you seriously going to say that an EMT and possibly a Paramedic has the knowledge to do all of the above ? I'm to doubt.
And don't take it the wrong way, I'm all for them standing by, but when they,
1. Portray the role of a "School Nurse"
2. Don't have a higher medical authority or an actual School Nurse on hand
All these can have bad consequences. What if all of a sudden a student faints at a school even and an EMT can't figure out why they have ? The School Nurse may say, " Yes, Bobby Joe has hypoglycemia, we have to make sure he eats some at lunch and such, lets get a BLG over here. " The EMT that isn't there all the time with the students wouldn't have this knowledge on file or on their agenda of things to make sure of throughout the day. Same with a camp nurse.

I don't know what kind of school nurses you had, but at my school we had these people called "health teachers", they covered health and such. The school nurse just consisted of band aids and Neosporin, they weren't a dentist or accountant.

Vaccinations are not a hard thing to do, they're simply an injection, I've given plenty of them. Screenings? Well, I suppose that could just be an ASSESSMENT.

As far as the hypoglycemia thing is concerned, what makes syncope on the playground any different than a 911 call for syncope? The EMT would approach it the same way, they would do the same assessment, and I highly, highly doubt they would miss something as simple as hypoglycemia.

 

[Katy]

Funding comes to mind. Unfortunately there are schools here that can't even provide desks for all students. They literally have kids sitting on the floor. If they can't hire a full-time RN... that's ok. I'd rather they invest any available money in providing a quality education. Although it's a great resource to have at a school, an RN is not necessary by any means. If they can't afford that, I suppose a good EMT or medic is better than nothing.

I totally agree, and I never really looked at it from that point. I suppose money could be a major issue as far as getting an RN trained School Nurse goes.

 

[Shishkabob]

...and it's not something that your average paramedic is going to be doing. If they're taking the first paramedic that applies to a situation that requires more than emergency medical care, then it is inappropriate.

Somewhat agreed, but that's not the issue that was brought up. The issue that was brought up was that Paramedics are not, and cannot be, as capable as an RN in 'primary care', which is a fallacy, let alone a fallacy portrayed by member who isn't educated at either of the 2 levels in question.

 

[DESERTDOC]

As a CNA Student I find it interesting that you walked into my home, Emtlife, and :censored::censored::censored::censored: on my table.

 

[Katy]

Somewhat agreed, but that's not the issue that was brought up. The issue that was brought up was that Paramedics are not, and cannot be, as capable as an RN in 'primary care', which is a fallacy, let alone a fallacy portrayed by member who isn't educated at either of the 2 levels in question.

Not primary care in general, but an education primary care. School Nurses in my area must have an x amount of experience and various certifications before becoming available for the position at hand. And are you educated in the RN level considering you are not one ? Again, this was simply my opinion and views, I wanted to express them. No need to get so serious about it, it was a simple view. Would you want an RN walking around saying they are a Paramedic when they are not ? Same applies in this case.

 

[JPINFV]

As a CNA Student

Umm, CNA or CRNA?