ALS Sleepover

[Sasha]

Is it possible to drop out of medic school and then begin nursing? You'd be better off, and could probably challenge the medic afterwards if you want.

And out of curiosity, why would I be better off?

 

[alphatrauma]

Nope. Not any state I know of.
R/r 911

So it is in the realm of possibility that there are states, that you DON'T know of, that do?

Don't get me wrong, I would never presume to think that an EMS Medical Director could/would ever challenge the apparent omnipotence of a individual in a high ranking educational/operational/managerial position, such as yourself... but hey, who woulda thought Buster Douglas would knock out Mike Tyson?

 

[alphatrauma]

I asked for someone to explain how sleeping during clinicals is conducive to learning.

It isn't... and I don't think anyone here is saying that it is. What this thread (initially) was about, is the perceived negative connotation associated with the label "ALS Engine Sleepovers" and whether it is justified or not. It's a really catchy phrase and can whip up a pretty frenzied debate, but doesn't seem to amount to much of anything at all.

 

[VentMedic]

It isn't... and I don't think anyone here is saying that it is. What this thread (initially) was about, is the perceived negative connotation associated with the label "ALS Engine Sleepovers" and whether it is justified or not. It's a really catchy phrase and can whip up a pretty frenzied debate, but doesn't seem to amount to much of anything at all.

For ALS engine sleepovers and an pointed out by the Florida state regulations, not only are the students sleeping, they also do not have the learning experience of transporting a patient. They are merely making contact and even though patient is deemed to be ALS, the care will go with the Rescue or ambulance Paramedics that will be transporting the patient.

 

[VentMedic]

Nope. Not any state I know of. They do NOT have the authority to do such. Since it is a license that is dispensed from the State of issued then they have a formal inquiry and follow the due process.

I believe the one state that allows the medical director to suspend a license is California since it gives authority to the counties. As also noted in a recent news article, the medical director can say who they certify or license even if it is someone convicted of a felony.

 

[Ridryder911]

So it is in the realm of possibility that there are states, that you DON'T know of, that do?

Don't get me wrong, I would never presume to think that an EMS Medical Director could/would ever challenge the apparent omnipotence of a individual in a high ranking educational/operational/managerial position, such as yourself... but hey, who woulda thought Buster Douglas would knock out Mike Tyson?

I guess you never heard of National Association of EMS Physicians (NAEMSP) and their programs for becoming a medical director?...... Yeah, I thought so.

I should had recognized California for their oddities unlike most States that authorize the license or certification. I would not be surprised that it would not be challenged for not allowing a due process to occur but again certification versus license is much easier to revoke.

R/r 911

 

[Aidey]

A medical director could withdraw their sponsorship of a particular persons license/cert if they wished, couldn't they? It's not exactaly revoking it, but it would stop someone from being able to legally practice.

That bit being said, is everone talking about in hospital clinicals, or externship ride time or both? From reading the thread it sounds like some people are talking about one, and some peopel are talking about the other.

 

[alphatrauma]

I guess you never heard of National Association of EMS Physicians (NAEMSP) and their programs for becoming a medical director?...... Yeah, I thought so.
R/r 911

Actually I have.. so you thought wrong.

For ALS engine sleepovers and an pointed out by the Florida state regulations, not only are the students sleeping, they also do not have the learning experience of transporting a patient. They are merely making contact and even though patient is deemed to be ALS, the care will go with the Rescue or ambulance Paramedics that will be transporting the patient.

Where else in the country is this practice going on? If this is an anomaly specific to Florida, I fail to see how a blanket generalization can be used to characterize unconventional Paramedic programs that we don't feel are adequate.

 

[Aidey]

Just as an FYI, the Paramedic program in the city I live in allows ALS engine rides. However, because of how our contract is worded, the city paramedics are allowed to transport on our (private company) ambulances.

It doesn't happen often, but when there is a code, or other serious call the fire paramedic will usually jump on. However, if an ALS engine has a paramedic student, the fire medic and student ride in on almost all the ALS calls they respond to and the student is in charge of care.

I think it's important for Paramedic students to experience all calls, since they won't be able to pick and choose their patients if they work on an ambulance, so i'm not really a fan of the system here.

However, the students do have the opportunity to transport, and are expected to ride in a certain number of times (I can't remember what their school requires).

 

[VentMedic]

Where else in the country is this practice going on? If this is an anomaly specific to Florida, I fail to see how a blanket generalization can be used to characterize unconventional Paramedic programs that we don't feel are adequate.

In Florida, we do NO approve of it as evidenced by the link I posted. READ the posts carefully. It had been a problem but anytime a medic mill tries to cram more students through by using the engines and ladders, they are reminded of the definition of an ambulance.

There are other states including CA and those that have medic mills advertising quick and easy programs.

 

[alphatrauma]

I read your posts thoroughly and they, including you most recent, fail to do anything more than stereotype and generalize. If the label fits, give school names/states/cities/counties etc... I'd like to know.

 

[Ridryder911]

I read your posts thoroughly and they, including you most recent, fail to do anything more than stereotype and generalize. If the label fits, give school names/states/cities/counties etc... I'd like to know.

Open up most of EMS rags such as EMS magazine, even JEMS and some EMS forums and you may find these "specialized training" centers and places offering such services.

Fortunately, many states are recognizing that the EMS industry needs to be regulated with other health care professions. This also includes the training and education division. Fortunately, my state as bad as it can be at times, recognized this early on and only will allow training/education at recognized educational facilities. Even EMS services cannot provide any EMT courses as they must be through some official recognized educational facility such as a college or career tech.

I am excited though, that my push for those to teach the Paramedic level must hold a degree is getting closer to being approved. I can say it has not or will not be easy though.

R/r 911

 

[medic417]

A medical director could withdraw their sponsorship of a particular persons license/cert if they wished, couldn't they? It's not exactaly revoking it, but it would stop someone from being able to legally practice.

That bit being said, is everone talking about in hospital clinicals, or externship ride time or both? From reading the thread it sounds like some people are talking about one, and some peopel are talking about the other.

As to sleeping big no for either for anything 16 hours or less. We do not allow 24's for students.

A medical director may say you may not work under their license so you just go work elsewhere. If you are a valued employee and the service feels that the medical director is overstepping by removing you they remove medical director and keep you instead. Even medical protocols if a doctor is a jerk about something whether good or bad the service will just change medical directors.

 

[medic417]

Oooh I'll bring the sharp cheddar and crackers!

What? Sharp doesn't go with dry bitter whine.

 

[Sasha]

I am not refined and classy enough to know that. I don't drink whine I just know sharp cheddar is good!

 

[medic417]

I am not refined and classy enough to know that. I don't drink whine I just know sharp cheddar is good!

Right. We all know better your our rich rebellious frenemy.

 

[Ridryder911]

As to sleeping big no for either for anything 16 hours or less. We do not allow 24's for students.

A medical director may say you may not work under their license so you just go work elsewhere. If you are a valued employee and the service feels that the medical director is overstepping by removing you they remove medical director and keep you instead. Even medical protocols if a doctor is a jerk about something whether good or bad the service will just change medical directors.

Very common, a medic to go somewhere else. Most of the time, word of mouth is faster than application process.

I do believe many have a misconception of the role of the medical director. I have seen some very active and for the most part most are just "paper" only. They have NO authority other than protocol development and QI. Just alike any other employee they can be replaced and are on a routine basis. Just look at some of the areas that have recently lost theirs such as Austin, etc...

R/r 911

 

[VentMedic]

I read your posts thoroughly and they, including you most recent, fail to do anything more than stereotype and generalize. If the label fits, give school names/states/cities/counties etc... I'd like to know.

Do as Rid says and pick up a JEMS mag and look at their advertising section.

Or, read any of the accelerated training threads on this EMS forum or others and you will find several links to these schools. I have posted links as have Rid, reaper, Medic417 etc just to give examples of what is out there. You honestly can not say I have made generalized statements when I have provided many links to the information I discuss in the many threads I post.

 

[Shishkabob]

Vent, I could have missed it in my skimming of the thread;

I know you're against ALS engine rides, as anyone should be.


But I can't find if you're for or against 24-hr clinicals all together?

 

[VentMedic]

Vent, I could have missed it in my skimming of the thread;

I know you're against ALS engine rides, as anyone should be.


But I can't find if you're for or against 24-hr clinicals all together?

My wording has been pretty consistent with ALS engine sleepovers. One could easily do 72 - 96 hours in one week to speed through their hours. If half of is spent sleeping at a slow station, time is wasted. I also believe it should be a learning process for knowledge and technique. Both the preceptor and the student should be alert enough to enhance the process. It is even controversial for nursing and RT students to do 12 hour shifts for their clinicals since neither the student or the clinical educator may be as brilliant in their 11th hour of continuous learning. Granted EMS is a little different where 23 of those 24 hours may be spent sleeping and in front of a TV or computer playing internet games.