EMS and taking pictures of incidents...

nomofica

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Not too long ago I witnessed an EMS personnel in my city taking pictures of the incident he responded to (car collision, one fatality) with his camera phone. Obviously it wasn't for "evidence", as it's not the EMS' job to collect evidence. I'm pretty sure he snapped a few shots of the casualty as well.

What are your thoughts/opinions on this?

Also, what are the "rules" for these sorts of things in your areas?
 

TheAfterAffect

Forum Lieutenant
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As long as there's no body in sight I don't see what the problem is, We get photographers all the time doing the same thing.


And yes, I mean that as no "Body" not Nobody.
 
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nomofica

nomofica

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Like I said, I'm pretty sure I saw him snap a few shots of the fatality. This is what I'm talking about.

Taking pictures of two smashed up cars is, well... whatever, who cares? But the body...?
 

artman17847

Forum Crew Member
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i have done it myself but only to document mech. of injury for the doc's to see. I would never think of taking a pic of a DOA.
 

Epi-do

I see dead people
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On EMS runs, I am typically too busy to be taking pictures. However, I do take pictures at trainings, and if we are on a fire run, I tend to take pictures at those as well, unless there is a patient of some sort.

I give the pictures to one of the officers at the department, and he uses some of them in the annual banquet video. Other than that, they just get stored on a disc and are for my personal use, just like my family vacation pictures, or pictures of my son playing in the snow. I do not typically post pictures of actual incidents from work to facebook, myspace, or anywhere else on the internet. It isn't worth it to me to risk my job, or at the very least, having to answer an awfully large amount of questions to alot of people I would rather not be talking to. On the very rare occassion that I do get a picture I want to share for whatever reason, I make darn sure there aren't any visable addresses, patients that can be identified, etc.
 

AJ Hidell

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As always, if you weren't taught to do something in EMT or Paramedic school, and if it is not in your job description, then you probably should not be doing it in the field. That goes for photography.
 
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nomofica

nomofica

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As always, if you weren't taught to do something in EMT or Paramedic school, and if it is not in your job description, then you probably should not be doing it in the field. That goes for photography.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I saw it.
 

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
11,322
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Apply Golden Rule

and follow employers' rules too.
 

BLSBoy

makes good girls go bad
733
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Not too long ago I witnessed an EMS personnel in my city taking pictures of the incident he responded to (car collision, one fatality) with his camera phone. Obviously it wasn't for "evidence", as it's not the EMS' job to collect evidence. I'm pretty sure he snapped a few shots of the casualty as well.

What are your thoughts/opinions on this?

Also, what are the "rules" for these sorts of things in your areas?

Do you KNOW what he was doing, and why?

Do not jump to conclusions without evidence to back it up.
 

flhtci01

Forum Captain
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Could he have been taking pictures to show the ER? What one sees and what another one hears from the description may present with two different pictures. We carry digital cameras on our rigs in order to grab a couple of quick shots for the ER if we think we need them.

It can help with writing the report also. I know of one instance where the person (my preceptor) took a picture of an auto after the pt had been extracted. We were able to look at it and determine things like airbag deployment, etc.

Maybe he was doing the same. He probably should not have used his personal phone to take pictures but if that was all he had? He should delete them at the earliest opportunity.

Not saying it was right, just a possibility.
 

medic417

The Truth Provider
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As I am to lazy to search and see if I or someone else posted this here is my thoughts.

If pictures were taken to be added to the report or to show the doctor the type of damage etc. No problem. Even if taken to be added into the training program no problem. Many services will have a member do photos as part of the job.

If taken to post on u-tube, idiot space, ugly face or any other site then they should be fired.
 

karaya

EMS Paparazzi
Premium Member
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Unless your employer has specific policies, guidelines, etc. as to the taking of scene photos, you shouldn't take one single image. Especially if you value your employment!

I've authored numerous articles on this very subject including one that appeared in the July 2008 issue of JEMS magazine.

http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/articles/jems/3307/at_the_push_of_a_button.html

In my article, I cite three incidents in which EMT's and paramedic lost their jobs due to the furor that was created over their on scene photography. After making the attention of the media, EMS administrators and elected officials were quick to react and terminate the camera toting medics even though no privacy laws including HIPAA were violated. All three EMS providers failed to have any policy toward photo documenting incident scenes.

Here are a couple of JEMS.com articles as well:

http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/articles/Missouri_EMT_Terminated_Over_Photos.html


http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/articles/Anatomy_of_Florida_Photo_Controversy.html
 

JROD

Forum Crew Member
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This just goes to show how bad things can get blown out of proportion. I don't condone taking pictures of fatalities, but properly documenting MOI is a part of the job. Its true that what someone sees and what someone hears is different. Snapping a photo to show the ER nurses or docs the MOI should be completely ok and acceptable even if its not taught in Paramedic or EMT school. Sometimes you need to think outside of the box to be a good medic. If you don't then you're just a cookbook medic, which isn't necessarily a good thing.
 

karaya

EMS Paparazzi
Premium Member
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This just goes to show how bad things can get blown out of proportion. I don't condone taking pictures of fatalities, but properly documenting MOI is a part of the job. Its true that what someone sees and what someone hears is different. Snapping a photo to show the ER nurses or docs the MOI should be completely ok and acceptable even if its not taught in Paramedic or EMT school. Sometimes you need to think outside of the box to be a good medic. If you don't then you're just a cookbook medic, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

Your logic, although plausible in its intent, is exactly what is getting medics into trouble. If "documenting MOI is part of the job", then the EMS providers needs to put that in a policy format that clearly spells out just what MOI documentation will take place and the proper chain of custody of the images once they are produced. Lacking this, is a recipe for public embarrassment and destroyed careers.

It was interesting to me the amount of medics that I encountered that have used MOI documentation to justify taking the images; only to have the images still on their cell phone cameras several months or sometimes years later.

Was their intent really MOI documentation?? I often wonder.
 

AJ Hidell

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I don't condone taking pictures of fatalities, but properly documenting MOI is a part of the job. Its true that what someone sees and what someone hears is different. Snapping a photo to show the ER nurses or docs the MOI should be completely ok and acceptable even if its not taught in Paramedic or EMT school. Sometimes you need to think outside of the box to be a good medic. If you don't then you're just a cookbook medic, which isn't necessarily a good thing.
Your final sentence is the only thing you said that makes the slightest bit of sense. And even that is a non-sequitor to the rest of your post.

What purpose does taking pictures of a DOS MOI serve? Are you transporting them to the ER?

Thinking outside of the box is good. Making up things as you go, with no intelligent consideration or evaluation of the ramifications, and with no regard for policy, is bad.
 

JROD

Forum Crew Member
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well I wouldn't necessarily be transporting the DOA but I try to make it a regular occurance to transport any survivors. After all, some car accidents do sometimes on occasion have more than one person involved. This type of accident does happen all the time, wouldn't you agree????? Maybe a drunk driver killed a family while cruising down the road and due to the affects of the alcohol, he isn't reporting any serious pain or injuries. Now in this case, wouldn't you want to show the ER doc what kind of accident this really was? I think this may be a situation that a snapshot of the VEHICLES ONLY may be ok.

I appreciate the constructive criticism Mr. Hiddell, but please understand that I wouldn't document an MOI for a fatality who was the only driver involved. I know you were trying to make me look/sound stupid but your gonna have to try harder than that next time! lol

I also wanted to say that I do agree with Karaya that these photos should be dealt with in a professional manner. Taking pics to show your buddies after works is definately not the way to go.
 
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reaper

Working Bum
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Should you not have a good working relationship with the ER Dr's, so they would believe what you tell them about the accident? I have never had a Dr. question me about the description of an mvc. Is it that bad in CA?
 

JROD

Forum Crew Member
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actually more so with the RNs for some reason, they don't really like us medics out here. I don't recall ever having a problem with the docs.
 

Shishkabob

Forum Chief
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Scene w/o pts= totally fine.

Scene w/ pts= not fine.

Don't know how it can be viewed any differently. If you have pts then do your job. But if there are none, and you don't have to do anything, snap away.

I was at a call where a guy back his truck FULLY into a neighbors house. No injuries, no pts. We were just on stdby just incase an FF got a booboo. Guess what I did? Snapped the giant truck in the house!! So did the police, medics, and FFs with their own personal cameras.
 
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