EMS and taking pictures of incidents...

[nomofica]

Haha, this got a little more heated than intended.


No, you're right I don't have a full picture on the bigger picture of the events. Perhaps he was documenting for professional purposes (which I hope was the case). But still, in my mind, taking pictures of any pts is completely wrong. Especially when the pt has passed...

Thanks for the input, guys.

 

[medicdan]

I'll drop in my $.02. If documenting MOI is the goal of the pictures, take a Polaroid (do they still exist?), attach it to the PCR, and make it a part of the ER chart. Then it stays a part of a protected chart, and it is the hospital's problem re: protection, and you dont hold on to a copy.

If the goal is training, then the patient should not be identifiable. If possible, a release should be sought, and picture genuinely kept for ONLY official training use.

Really, how often are EMS personnel on scenes where there are no patients. Make that scenes where photographs are indicated.

There is NO reason for EMTs or Paramedics to keep pictures of patients or scenes on their cell phones.

 

[BossyCow]

MOI pictures need to be taken on agency equipment. NO PICTURES OF ANY KIND.. should ever be taken of actual incidents with personal cameras or cell phones.

Worse case scenario... your phone/camera is lost or stolen. What control do you then have over the distribution of that image? None.. however, you will still retain liability for the picture, because you are the one who took it.

We have a very clear policy regarding pictures of scenes. Taking any personal pictures of any scene, call or drill is grounds for progressive discipline up to and including termination depending on the severity of the event.

People have been sued repeatedly over this. People have lost their jobs repeatedly over this. This is not a gray area as far as the liability goes.

 

[EMTCLM]

As always, if you weren't taught to do something in EMT or Paramedic school, and if it is not in your job description, then you probably should not be doing it in the field. That goes for photography.

i wouldnt do that unless it was for eveidence, just out of respect and courtesy to the pt and the family

 

[amberdt03]

i wouldnt do that unless it was for eveidence, just out of respect and courtesy to the pt and the family

i've know quite a bit of people that have taken pics of car wrecks, only so they can show the Dr and nurses a better visual of what the scene looked like and once they were done, they deleted them, or at least said they did.

 

[karaya]

i wouldnt do that unless it was for eveidence, just out of respect and courtesy to the pt and the family

You shouldn't do it at all unless your employer clearly outlines in a policy format that scene photography of any kind is within the scope of your employment. Without any authorization from your employer, your best bet is to forget the MOI and evidence photography.

 

[JROD]

As a part of this thread, I would like to ask how many of you are planning on going into the fire service???

If you think properly documenting MOI (including pics when necessary) is wrong because its not outlined in your SOPs then why would you open a door for a woman, greet everyone you see on the street with the utmost respect, helping an old lady load her bags into her car, etc, etc...These may not be outlined in the SOPs word for word, but its common sense....if it needs to be done, then it better get done. Things like this occur every day in the standard EMS system, but if they aren't outlines in the SOPs, then we shouldn't actually carry out these "procedures," right? I wouldn't want to get fired for opening the door wrong for an old lady...this may be blowing things out of proportion but i think this thread has reached this point...

I guess the whole "fire service" thing applies to the "getting a cat out of a tree" scenario. Although you may not actually be getting a cat out of a tree, you might be asked by an old lady to do something just as ridiculous in your point of view...but if its not outlined in your SOPs, would you do it?

 

[reaper]

Because none of your examples can be illegal! Try again and come up with better examples to make your argument.

 

[JROD]

so what if i help an old lady with her grocery bags and accidently bump in to her while loading them...techincally thats battery...should I be sued?????? is this an "illegal" enough example??? I feel like the fact that you would even argue that these are legal actions and documenting MOI is illegal is retarded in itself.

 

[reaper]

Well, considering that I have never had to take a photo to document MOI in 20 years, tells me that this is a none argument. You should be able to write a pcr that documents MOI. If you can not write it out, then you may need to learn how.

Taking a picture for training, is one thing. Taking to show the ED the wreck, is another. As I stated before, your ED's should be trusting what you tell them about an accident scene. If they are not, then you have more serious issues to deal with.

 

[AJ Hidell]

JROD, If your fire department does not have written policies regarding treating the public with dignity and respect, ladder operations, and animal rescue, then your department sucks. Poor examples.

 

[JROD]

So your telling me that your department actually has SOPs for rescuing cats from trees???? In most big cities, thats considered animal control's job. If you actually have SOPs regarding that procedure, then your dept has way to much time on there hands...As for the other examples, I felt like this thread was becoming way too literal and needed to have some literal examples introduced. If you think this is wrong, then I appologize for disagreeing.

 

[AJ Hidell]

So your telling me that your department actually has SOPs for rescuing cats from trees????

I have been a firefighter with two professional departments and yes, both had written policies regarding animal rescue, as well as the ladder ops necessary to effect them. Yours doesn't?

 

[JROD]

lol, being that we are a rather large city with a rather large volume of calls per month, we designate animal rescue to the qualified professionals, that being animal control. Wouldn't you agree that there training and experience would be better suited for that type of operation?? We also don't outline forced entry into a hostage situation in our SOPs becuase thats left up to the SWAT team...

 

[Scout]

So what your saying is your non existant written SOP outline the standard proceedure as recieve call pass it on?



Woudl that not indicate you have a SOP written down, how else would you know what to do?

 

[AJ Hidell]

I worked in one of the ten largest cities in the United States, so it was certainly no small, suburban agency (although I worked one of those too). Animal Control would not be allowed to scale an aerial ladder. Animal Control has no high angle rescue team. Animal Control has no water rescue team. Animal Control has no trench rescue team. Animal Control has no protective equipment with which to enter a burning structure or property. Animal rescue will always be a responsibility of the fire RESCUE service. In fact, Animal Control should probably be merged with the fire service since you guys are so interested in rescue.

As for the hostage situation, any fire department worth a darn has written policies addressing both forced entry and hostile operations. Again, I'm really surprised that your agency does not. I would have very little confidence in a department that did not have the competent management to provide for them.

 

[JROD]

I'm not really sure what you're asking me there, or if your qestion is even directed toward me...if you're asking if we have a "non-written procedure" for dealing with calls pertaining to animal rescue then my answer would be that we have no SOP regarding animal rescue. It seems to be common sense between all dispatchers to refer any calls pertaining to ANIMAL rescue to ANIMAL control, seeing as they are best suited/trained for the job. We also occasionally refer people to outside companies after an overhaul, seeing as they are better fitted for the reconstruction job than we are...

 

[JROD]

So AJ, what your telling me is that you have SOPs for a high angle rescue team to respond to a 86 year old lady who is calling about a stranded animal. You also seem to write SOPs for hostage situations that have not been properly secured by a competent/well trained Police department in your area. If you have procedures for breaching a building during a hostage situation, then I'm not so sure I want to work for your city...Especially since I don't have the proper training to deal with that kind of situation in the first place.

 

[AJ Hidell]

I'm not really sure what you're asking me there...

I'm asking you if your department has written policies for the situations I listed. And do you really need a written policy to know to bring the dog out of the burning house?

Do dispatchers run your department? Sooner or later, Animal Control encounters a scenario that they are not trained or prepared for. Typically, those scenarios are those that professional firefighters have been trained for, so you get the call. If you haven't received any of those calls, then you're not in a very big department.

 

[AJ Hidell]

So AJ, what your telling me is that you have SOPs for a high angle rescue team to respond to a 86 year old lady who is calling about a stranded animal.

Who called us is irrelevant, isn't it? Who or what you are rescuing is also irrelevant. You should have written policies and procedures addressing high angle rescue. Period.

You also seem to write SOPs for hostage situations that have not been properly secured by a competent/well trained Police department in your area.

You're going out of your way to overcomplicate this. Do you not have an SOP telling you whether or not you may enter unsecured hostile scenes? If you have a tactical rescue team, do they not have SOPs for their operations?

If you have procedures for breaching a building during a hostage situation, then I'm not so sure I want to work for your city...Especially since I don't have the proper training to deal with that kind of situation in the first place.

You should have an SOP for forced entry. You should have an SOP for hostile scenes. You should have an SOP for assisting law enforcement. You do not have to have one SOP that addresses all three at the same time. And if you have not been trained on all three of those scenarios, then your training was horribly inadequate. Your SOP and training may be as simple as "don't do it", but it should still exist.