IV certification??

[Shishkabob]

Considering we give those by prescription for patients to administer on themselves?

See, here's the thing... you can't confuse your agency's / states protocols for someone elses.

Some states give 7 BLS drugs, none of which require the PT to already be prescribed. This includes NTG. If a pt meets the criteria, but has no prescription, we don't go "Well you're SOL".

 

[Veneficus]

See, here's the thing... you can't confuse your agency's / states protocols for someone elses.

Some states give 7 BLS drugs, none of which require the PT to already be prescribed. This includes NTG. If a pt meets the criteria, but has no prescription, we don't go "Well you're SOL".

sorry if i was unclear. I support basic providers giving nitro, albuterol, atrovent, IM epi, and glucagon provided they are properly educated to do so or the decision is made by online medical direction.

 

[Shishkabob]

sorry if i was unclear. I support basic providers giving nitro, albuterol, atrovent, IM epi, and glucagon provided they are properly educated to do so or the decision is made by online medical direction.

Ah ok then, sorry for the misunderstanding. Been long day =)

 

[lightsandsirens5]

I support basic providers giving nitro, albuterol, atrovent, IM epi, and glucagon provided they are properly educated to do so or the decision is made by online medical direction.

I agree. It isnt that tough to figure out the indications/contras for these basic drugs. And with OLMC, us "uneducated, blind BLS monkeys" almost can't go wrong!

*sigh*

 

[medic417]

I agree. It isnt that tough to figure out the indications/contras for these basic drugs. And with OLMC, us "uneducated, blind BLS monkeys" almost can't go wrong!

*sigh*

I would disagree. Even with online control you as a basic may miss an important detail that would cause the doctor to change which if any med to have you administer. Yes much can go wrong. Plus nitro should not be given to a patient w/o a 12 lead and IV access. No that does not mean basics should do those so they can give nitro.

 

[Shishkabob]

I would disagree. Even with online control you as a basic may miss an important detail that would cause the doctor to change which if any med to have you administer.

Same with medics...

 

[medic417]

Same with medics...

More education makes it less likely. If I was the patient I want the best chance.

 

[Veneficus]

I agree. It isnt that tough to figure out the indications/contras for these basic drugs. And with OLMC, us "uneducated, blind BLS monkeys" almost can't go wrong!

*sigh*

Are you suggesting that anyone should give medications without education on its use or in its absence of that, somebody who is educated about its specifics?

I do not think it is asking a lot to require some classes in pharm, especially the specifics of the meds you are giving before writing a blank cheque on EMT-Bs dolling out medications that require a prescription. I never said anyone was stupid or a monkey. I don't know how to fix a car because I was never taught, I would definately make an effort to learn something about it before I tried. If I thought it was too complicated a repair for me I would also defer to somebody more capable than myself.

Does it sound that unreasonable?

I have had to clean up after basics who thought the local swelling from a bee sting was an early anaphylaxis sign and stabbed a pt with an epi pen. The agency was quite fortunate we were not sued. Sometimes treatments are limited to protect the providers. I would much rather be told by my medical director I didn't know enough to do something than a personal injury or malpractice attorney.

In addition, all chest pain is not cardiac in nature, you can't give everyone complaining of CP nitro "just in case" anymore than you could stab people in the chest with a needle cause they "might have a spontaneous pneumo."

I do not think a monitor or an IV is required in order to give meds and it is no substitute for education or clinical judgement. My mom doesn't take her bp, put herself on a monitor, or start a line before she takes her nitro. I doubt anyone does.

Nobody is immune from making mistakes.

 

[Shishkabob]

More education makes it less likely. If I was the patient I want the best chance.

Are you saying that just because someone isn't a medic they have less education?

So much for all those pharmacy techs that are EMTs. So much for all those pre meds. Or PAs. Or nurses. Or other medical professionals that are also EMTs.

What about a 20 year EMT when compared to a 1 month medic?



You can't make blanket statements like that.

 

[rmellish]

Because all EMTs are pharmacy techs.

Or maybe we should grant special privileges to those who are.

 

[Shishkabob]

Because all EMTs are pharmacy techs.

Or maybe we should grant special privileges to those who are.

Yes, I am glad you caught on to the concept I was trying to convey......

Or you can just prove his point. Whichever works.

 

[lightsandsirens5]

Are you suggesting that anyone should give medications without education on its use or in its absence of that, somebody who is educated about its specifics?

I do not think it is asking a lot to require some classes in pharm, especially the specifics of the meds you are giving before writing a blank cheque on EMT-Bs dolling out medications that require a prescription. I never said anyone was stupid or a monkey. I don't know how to fix a car because I was never taught, I would definately make an effort to learn something about it before I tried. If I thought it was too complicated a repair for me I would also defer to somebody more capable than myself.

Does it sound that unreasonable?

I have had to clean up after basics who thought the local swelling from a bee sting was an early anaphylaxis sign and stabbed a pt with an epi pen. The agency was quite fortunate we were not sued. Sometimes treatments are limited to protect the providers. I would much rather be told by my medical director I didn't know enough to do something than a personal injury or malpractice attorney.

In addition, all chest pain is not cardiac in nature, you can't give everyone complaining of CP nitro "just in case" anymore than you could stab people in the chest with a needle cause they "might have a spontaneous pneumo."

I do not think a monitor or an IV is required in order to give meds and it is no substitute for education or clinical judgement. My mom doesn't take her bp, put herself on a monitor, or start a line before she takes her nitro. I doubt anyone does.

Nobody is immune from making mistakes.

I am not at all saying people should give medications without education on its use! I may be just a basic, but I am not an idiot!!!

I'm saying that basics should be allowed to give a certain things with the proper training.

About the basic sticking epi in the pt with local swelling, he/she was obviously not following protocols! If you link all basics would do this, if you think basics think all CP is cardiac, if you think that a basic would give nitro "just in case". If you think that these things are stereotypical of a basic.........you my friend are sadly mistaken and I feel very sorry for you.

There are thousands of basics in this country who, every day, follow protocols and apply their training and save lives. Sometimes that training includes 1 or 2 more drugs or procedures. SO WHAT!!! They have been trained for it!

 

[JPINFV]

Are you saying that just because someone isn't a medic they have less education?

So much for all those pharmacy techs that are EMTs. So much for all those pre meds. Or PAs. Or nurses. Or other medical professionals that are also EMTs.

What about a 20 year EMT when compared to a 1 month medic?



You can't make blanket statements like that.

Sure, I'll make the argument that the average EMT-P has more education than your average EMT-B. I'm not about to go around saying, "Zomg, I have an undergraduate degree and am in grad school, I should be able to do X, Y, and Z because my education far surpasses EMT-B training," because you can't just go around asking for special privileges for specific providers. After all, it's called EMT-B, not EMT-JPINFV.

 

[Veneficus]

Because all EMTs are pharmacy techs.

Or maybe we should grant special privileges to those who are.

Sorry, I don't understad. What has having to take a couple of weeks worth of extra class if you are going to give out meds have to do with pharm techs?

There is no way to cover the topic in the 120 hours that is EMT class.

 

[Veneficus]

About the basic sticking epi in the pt with local swelling, he/she was obviously not following protocols! If you link all basics would do this, if you think basics think all CP is cardiac, if you think that a basic would give nitro "just in case". If you think that these things are stereotypical of a basic.........you my friend are sadly mistaken and I feel very sorry for you.

Ummm, there is more than a fair share of medics who give things "just in case." I was not trying to imply that all basics are somehow bad, I have thrown a lot of support behind basics as of the late. Please consider that following a protocol without judgment doesn't make anyone at any level a good provider. Handing out medication to people who they are not indicated for is not always "helping" even if you don't see immediate harm. medications are toxins, you must forgive me that I do not think there is enough education for EMTs as a whole in the US currently to have them determine when they are going to use a controlled poison on another human. But my opinion of the education has no bearing on whether or not I think EMTs, medics, or anyone else does a good job based on what is expected of them. Also please see the forest from the trees. You may be the greatest basic that ever lived, you may find you are surrounded by such providers, but as a whole, that is not the average ability of all the people practicing today.

There are thousands of basics in this country who, every day, follow protocols and apply their training and save lives. Sometimes that training includes 1 or 2 more drugs or procedures. SO WHAT!!! They have been trained for it!

I disagree that basics should be given extra training to do extra things unless there is some kind of mitigating circumstance such as remote area, etc. The more EMS providers base their value to society on how many procedures they can do or drugs they can give the farther from a respectable profession (an consequently a pay raise) EMS becomes.I was an EMT-B once too, for many years in fact. At the time I didn't know what I didn't know. I still teach medic classes and it is difficult to teach them what they need to know in the alloted time. My professors tell me they cannot teach me what I need in the alloted time. (and assign a great deal of homework for what they could not cover on any given day) How is it that EMT class suddenly makes people ready to expand their scope so disproportionately to their education?

 

[medic417]

Are you saying that just because someone isn't a medic they have less education?

So much for all those pharmacy techs that are EMTs. So much for all those pre meds. Or PAs. Or nurses. Or other medical professionals that are also EMTs.

What about a 20 year EMT when compared to a 1 month medic?



You can't make blanket statements like that.

You can't make the blanket statement that all meet those criteria either. In fact if a study were done I would bet it would end up less than 5% meet your criteria. So why should the rules be changed for all for the few with real medical education?

I would trust the 1 month medic more as they have education behind them.

 

[Shishkabob]

Education means absolutely nothing without practical experience.


Again, the part I think you guys are FAILING to understand is that with more skills and meds, more education is required.

I'm not saying give all basics every drug and skill. I'm saying, why not allow a few more things with the PROPER education.

If you disagree with that statement then you need to explain why other then "They don't have enough education" as I have stated 5 times already WITH THE PROPER EDUCATION.

 

[ffemt8978]

After all, it's called EMT-B, not EMT-JPINFV.

You been looking at WA state's certification levels again?

 

[JPINFV]

I'm not saying give all basics every drug and skill. I'm saying, why not allow a few more things with the PROPER education.

The problem is that a lot of us don't think that EMT-Bs have enough education to do what we're doing already.

 

[ffemt8978]

One of the services I work for is ALS 24/7 and has fewer than 200 calls. Just means prioritys need changing. Do whats best for the patients.

So what you're saying is that you work for more than one service, correct? I'm guessing that you do so in an effort to pay all of your bills. Could you meet all of your financial obligations if that service was the ONLY one you worked for, or if you had to drive 1-2 hours one way to another job?