Why does EMT job pay so little money?

[KEVD18]

Your wrong. I want to make more money than an In and Out employee (fast food). They start their employees at 10/hour. They get three days of training. I had six months of training. I deserve more money. I didnt say that EMT is an advanced medical provider, as all of you here know I believe differently. But economically, EMTs and Medics deserve more. Medics make 11/hour at my company. I make 10.

No, I will not leave the profession. I will fight for better. Its this type of thinking that limits us all. I spent 600 on EMT, 100 on BCLS, and payed registration fees for National Registry, and payed the state for my card. After all that, I payed the CIty of Los Angles for a "permit" to be hired as an EMT in their city (160.00). I payed over a grand and spent time training for my job, and I will demand more compensation that a fast food employee who got payed to attend their three day training.

you can demands anything you want. more money, a new station, visually striking sunsets every day. but your not going to get it. you have no bargaining power. you a basic emt in california. theres 5,000 other guys that will slide right into your job and not complain. you want more money, earn it. get your medic. get on a fire dept or a chopper. go to nursing school. do something that makes you worth more money and you'll get it.

the reason they pay in and out better than you is desire. nobody actually wants to flip burgers for a living so they have to pay them fairly well. but some people cant get a better job for whatever reason, so they do what they have to do to survive. its not so in ems. people are lined up ready to take an entry level job, work at it for a while until they are ready to advance to the next level.

 

[upstateemt]

The pay for both EMT's and Paramedics in my area sucks (Upstate Rural NY). I don't know how anyone makes a "living" doing it. I am an RN by day (to pay the bills) and an EMT-CC at night because I like doing it.

I've been asked to go to Medic School but until the pay for a Medic is comparable to an RN I can't afford to do it.

 

[John E]

Real demand vs alleged demand...

Stating that there is a real demand for EMTs and Paramedics in SoCal is partly true. There are certainly plenty of entry level jobs available.

But the so called laws of supply and demand don't apply here.

Not when local schools are churning out EMTs at a record rate as they are.

Not when there are people who will work for 8 bucks an hour and try to make up their low pay with overtime...? Someday all those EMTs will figure out that their are only so many hours in a week no matter what kind of lies the person recruiting claims.

Not when private companies can post an ad on Craigslist and get dozens of applicants willing to work for peanuts just so they can get to work on an ambulance.

Not when people have the misguided notion that by risking their own lives, ie, driving code 3 thru traffic, confronting things like MRSA, HIV, etc, for crappy wages that they're somehow paying their dues and gaining valuable experience to be used for some imaginary future job.

Working for a private ambulance company is the worst job in EMS, doesn't matter if you went to a community college for 6 months or a diploma mill for 3 weeks, you're still trying to take a crappy entry level job and making it into a career, ain't gonna happen. Not in L.A., not anywhere.

As for paramedics only making a dollar more per hour, maybe where you work but there are plenty of places where a paramedic makes a helluva lot more than that. You've just got to open your parameters up and quit thinking that a private ambulance company is gonna be the place to make your career. The only people making a decent living at a private company are the owners. The rest are either getting by or they have a very warped sense of what making a living is all about.

John E

 

[daedalus]

you can demands anything you want. more money, a new station, visually striking sunsets every day. but your not going to get it. you have no bargaining power. you a basic emt in california. theres 5,000 other guys that will slide right into your job and not complain. you want more money, earn it. get your medic. get on a fire dept or a chopper. go to nursing school. do something that makes you worth more money and you'll get it.

the reason they pay in and out better than you is desire. nobody actually wants to flip burgers for a living so they have to pay them fairly well. but some people cant get a better job for whatever reason, so they do what they have to do to survive. its not so in ems. people are lined up ready to take an entry level job, work at it for a while until they are ready to advance to the next level.

Again, I feel your logic is flawed. A medic in southern california, on average, makes 1-3 dollars more an hour than I do. All of us, at every level of prehospital provider, including CCT nurses, are not payed fairly.

Actually, if those that came before us did not demand and fight, the world would be a much different place. Women might still not be able to vote, and slaves might still exist in the United States as a common practice. I do not want to get philosophical, but my point is not refuted by your post.

You can explain your reasoning behind our wages, however I will be working to move us all forward with more education and better pay. I prefer not to sit around.

 

[Onceamedic]

...I will be working to move us all forward with more education and better pay. I prefer not to sit around.

That I can wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[JPINFV]

But the so called laws of supply and demand don't apply here.

Actually, the law of supply and demand is working just as it should. The demand for employees is much lower than the number of employees available for the wages being offered. Companies shouldn't be paying their employees more than they value them at (note: things such as decreasing employee turnover goes into that calculation). Similarly, employees should value their time and sell their time (wages) appropriately. Sadly, most employees fail at either fighting for their own worth or judging what they're true value in the market is. Just because one side is failing at holding up their end at the bargaining table doesn't mean that things like the market place or supply and demand aren't working.

 

[KEVD18]

i fully support you while you fight the good fight. i just dont expect anything to change.

 

[BossyCow]

Stating that there is a real demand for EMTs and Paramedics in SoCal is partly true. There are certainly plenty of entry level jobs available.

But the so called laws of supply and demand don't apply here.

John E

Actually this is exactly the laws of supply and demand. If they are churning out new EMTs all the time, then the demand for new fresh emts has a huge supply.

 

[KEVD18]

you also have to consider if there is a surplus of emts looking for work, you dont have to do much to keep your staff happy. theres a hundred guys willing to take that job and get a start in the business. thats what i was originally saying. if the opposite is true, you have some bargaining power. but when you're on the wrong side of the equation, its a fruitless battle.

 

[John E]

Not really...

if the "rules" about supply and demand held true, the high demand would mean higher wages and better working conditions. The reverse is true in SoCal. The demand is high and the supply is even higher with schools churning out thousands of EMT grads who are willing to work for artificially low wages in order to either fill some sort of personal need or to gain experience, etc.

What's actually happening is a devaluation of employees. The demand is high because after a few months of working for sub-standard wages, people leave to go work at In and Out or elsewhere. Those that stay with it either accept that they are at the bottom of the wage chain and convince themselves that they're doing it for the good of humanity or they figure out how to make more money by becoming an FTO or a supervisor before they finally get so burned out and pissed off about their low wages that they leave the field all together.

If the standards for EMT education and certification were raised and the private ambulance companies were actually held to some better standards, the wages would increase, patient care would improve and ambulance based EMS work could become an actual career. That ain't gonna happen and no amount of *****ing on a web forum with noble ideas about abolishing slavery is gonna change it.

John E

 

[JPINFV]

if the "rules" about supply and demand held true, the high demand would mean higher wages and better working conditions. The reverse is true in SoCal. The demand is high and the supply is even higher with schools churning out thousands of EMT grads who are willing to work for artificially low wages in order to either fill some sort of personal need or to gain experience, etc.

Relatively speaking, supply is higher then demand. Hence the power is with the companies and not the employer. This won't change a bit in So Cal as long as:

1. Schools keep spitting out EMT-Bs
1.a: This won't change as long as educational requirements (Minimum is 110 hours. The difference between 110 and even 130 isn't anything to wright home about. The calendar day length (2 weeks, 4 months, etc) is not important) remain low.

2. Fire Based EMS remains which essentially requires every fire fighter to be a paramedic and most (if not all) paramedic schools require time as an EMT-B. Why should people trying to get into the fire service care about EMS if the only thing they want out of EMS levels and experience is a few extra points on their fire service application?

 

[BEorP]

The bottom line is that you (as a profession/occupation) need more education if you want more money. What more really needs to be said?

 

[daedalus]

The bottom line is that you (as a profession/occupation) need more education if you want more money. What more really needs to be said?

A lot more. When a Paramedic has worked hard for their education, has an two year degree from ventura college, and makes eleven bucks an hour? Things need to change.

Part of what is said about the fire service in SoCal is correct. Private companies can pay their paramedics :censored::censored::censored::censored: because they know they are just using the agency as a stepping stone to fire.

 

[BEorP]

A lot more. When a Paramedic has worked hard for their education, has an two year degree from ventura college, and makes eleven bucks an hour? Things need to change.

Part of what is said about the fire service in SoCal is correct. Private companies can pay their paramedics :censored::censored::censored::censored: because they know they are just using the agency as a stepping stone to fire.

Have you as a profession made a two year degree mandatory?

 

[VentMedic]

A lot more. When a Paramedic has worked hard for their education, has an two year degree from ventura college, and makes eleven bucks an hour? Things need to change.

Unfortunately, that Paramedic will still be judged by the weakest link if there are no established standards for education other than the minimum number of "hours" required. The 3 month medic mill graduate will still be what legislators and companies see.

So far, I believe only Oregon has a mandatory 2 year degree for Paramedic.

Not too long ago an EMS agency in Tennessee announced that it was requiring their EMT-Ps to have a degree and the pay was increased. This has been tried in other areas and challenged if it is not a national or state requirement for licensure. Even the statement "degree preferred" in the job description can get problems from various unions and those who are frightened they may also have to get an education. This rarely holds true in other professions such as nursing and RT. They can and do recommend higher education levels for hire.

Over 25 years ago before RT even required an Associates degree for national testing, it was known that if you wanted to work critical care or get a job with some hospitals, you had to have a degree. Thus, when it was finally anounced in 2002 that a degree was going to be mandatory for testing, most students were already in degree programs and most practitioners working in the profession already had degrees. Now, after the degree requirement has been established, the wages are starting to trend upward. We also have some hospitals that pay better than others but now there is more power for reimbursement and bargaining power when the legislative or hospital wage issues come up. The profession is now looking at raising the national level to Bachelors since many RTs did go that option as nursing did and obtain their B.S. in RT or Cardiopulmonary. With the additional education requirements, bills are also being presented in the legislature to get more reimbursement in some specialty areas of the profession which will benefit the RRT later.

There is also a difference in the way RT perceives other professions. RTs don't waste time trying to be "like" another profession and comparing "skills". They have focused on getting their profession recognized for what it is. Paramedics have tried to compare themselves, especially with skills, and be "like" other professions instead of focusing establishing their own identity. This is even while saying "we're so different and special".

 

[John E]

You hit...

it right on it's little head.

Your observations are spot on Ventmedic.

As an occasional RT student, picking up classes when possible and available, one of things that attracted me was the fact that RT is considered and treated as a true profession.

I've posted before about the correlation between higher salaries for RT's and RN's and mandatory increased education, it's a shame that EMS fails to require more if it's practitioners.

John E.

 

[John E]

just one more thing...

Why would anyone go thru a 2 year community college program, ie, the example given of Ventura College, and then accept a job that only pays $11.00 per hour?

I wouldn't and don't work as an EMT-1 for $11.00 an hour.

Anyone who takes these jobs paying substandard wages needs to take a real hard look at what they're doing and where they're going.

John E.

 

[VentMedic]

Good points John but some do hope the EMS profession will catch up. My pay for being an EMT-P and RRT were equally very little and that was with having a degree in both. It took several years before the wage at my RRT job almost doubled my EMT-P wage but the national standard of the degree definitely helped. Having a Masters degree does little for my wage as an EMT-P unless I'm working in education or administration. It was a requirement for my RRT job to be part of research projects as well as being an educator.

The Paramedic job description for my Flight job still says High School diploma or equivalent and a Paramedic certificate with licensure from the state. My senority or years of experience guide my wage in EMS. I make the same as someone with a 3 month medic mill cert who hasn't set foot in a classroom in 30 years.

 

[Sasha]

Why would anyone go thru a 2 year community college program, ie, the example given of Ventura College, and then accept a job that only pays $11.00 per hour?

I wouldn't and don't work as an EMT-1 for $11.00 an hour.

Anyone who takes these jobs paying substandard wages needs to take a real hard look at what they're doing and where they're going.

John E.

11/hr? I wish. I make a dollar under that. What am I doing? Getting my career started and established in health care. Where am I going? To put myself through nursing school. My ultimate goal is a nurse in the peace corps, which pay is even less, last I heard you got like 6,000 when you were done with your time. Why would I ever consider it, and why do EMTs and Medics take such a crappy wage?

Because I love what I do. I love health care, I love helping people, I love the whole kit and kaboodle. I would rather get paid crap for something I love to do then a whole heck of a lot of money doing what I dont want to do.

 

[John E]

hmmm....

Loving what you do is great, I really enjoy what I do to, I also really enjoy being able to keep a roof over my head, pay for medical insurance,keep 2 kids housed and fed, keep 2 rescued dogs housed and fed, take a vacation every now and again, you know, the normal stuff that other people who work as health care professionals do. I also don't define myself by what I do for a living, as I notice a lot of people that work for substandard wages do when trying to justify why they let companies take advantage of them.

Problem with using the loving what you do as your primary means of evaluating a job is that there are people who will take advantage of that love you have of helping others and use it to justify paying substandard wages, hard to believe I know but it's true.

Expecting people to live under the poverty level cause they love what they do is simply wrong. In the process of helping others, you're hurting yourself and the entire health care/EMS profession by working for substandard wages.

Taking a low paying job while still in training/school is one thing, accepting less than livable wages once you've moved into the actual field of work is a whole nuther thing.

John E