Simple question, why do people out there place a higher value on fire vs. EMS? They are usually paid better, treated better, have better equipment, and receive more tax money. Yet their level of productivity is only maybe 20% that of your EMS workers? How is their paid existance justified (or volunteer budget justified depending on where you are at), when many places can't even get paid EMS or ALS level services. Why do people value them more? Please discuss and share....................
Why do people value fire more than EMS?
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Topher38
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Could be because they arent JUST fire fighters. After all MOST paid fire departments require a fire fighter to be atleast EMT-B certified.
And they also just look better. I mean camon. Guy running into burning building with axe vs guy walking into building calmy with a medical bag.
I think thats how its looked at it by the "un-educated".
But dont get me wroung fire fighters deserve a hell of alot of respect for what they do and they get less then they deserve. But EMS just doesnt get that applause as much.
It could also be that Fire departments are envolved in the media. NEws crew people can video tape fire fighters fighting a fire.
But news crews cant follow EMS proffesionals into a house or into the back of an ambulance, so That might also be why.
Hey I dont know. Just my opinion.
And they also just look better. I mean camon. Guy running into burning building with axe vs guy walking into building calmy with a medical bag.
I think thats how its looked at it by the "un-educated".
But dont get me wroung fire fighters deserve a hell of alot of respect for what they do and they get less then they deserve. But EMS just doesnt get that applause as much.
It could also be that Fire departments are envolved in the media. NEws crew people can video tape fire fighters fighting a fire.
But news crews cant follow EMS proffesionals into a house or into the back of an ambulance, so That might also be why.
Hey I dont know. Just my opinion.
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JerzEmt
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PR is the answer, I have to agree, and they look nice from a helicopter, hovering over buildings Streams of water on BIG fires... Fires also touch a very primal area of all humans, take away the logic and it is a very basic feeling when you see a fire.
How many times have you had someone ask as you walk out of a house "Is everyone alright?" We CAN’T answer, yet we just finished CPR and shocked the person. The fireman, "Yea lady it was just a little FIRE in the kitchen!"
You get an MVA and Fire is there on the news, but how many times are there MVA's and it's you the cop and a wrecker and the person is brought to a trauma center?
Think about the NEWS, Fire destroys ...whatever
Unless you are talking about the plague who hears about EMS, that is unless they are the MVA.
PR my friend is the answer,, we get bad press. Silent heroes, not just the Navel Submariners…
How many times have you had someone ask as you walk out of a house "Is everyone alright?" We CAN’T answer, yet we just finished CPR and shocked the person. The fireman, "Yea lady it was just a little FIRE in the kitchen!"
You get an MVA and Fire is there on the news, but how many times are there MVA's and it's you the cop and a wrecker and the person is brought to a trauma center?
Think about the NEWS, Fire destroys ...whatever
Unless you are talking about the plague who hears about EMS, that is unless they are the MVA.
PR my friend is the answer,, we get bad press. Silent heroes, not just the Navel Submariners…
Epi-do
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I think PR is part of it. I think the other part is that as a profession, firefighters know who they are - they are part of public safety. EMS, on the other hand, can't decide where we want to fit in. Firefighters are collectively organized and supported by one union. Again, EMS can't decide what to do. I have heard of various agencies represented by just about every different union out there that you can think of.
Yes, the flames, water, flashing lights, and big red trucks make for better action shots on the evening news. The FD just lucks into some of that PR due to the nature of their job. They also work at it - we participate in a program at the FD I work at where we go into the class room at various elementary schools multiple times throughout the schoolyear to acquaint the kids with firefighters. We do a safety day where the family can come out, see demonstrations - some of them hands on things even - to give them a better idea of what the FD does. I don't see EMS as a whole doing anything like this. We complain that we are the red-headed stepchild, that nobody wants to claim us. When we don't have a clue if we want to be a part of public safety, the medical world, or just stand on our own, how can we expect anyone else to accept us for what we are?
Ultimately, it is up to us to make the public understand why we are just as important, or maybe even more so in some respects, than fire, police, or whatever other agency or group you want to compare us to. It is time we, as a whole, stopped fighting amongst ourselves, started acting like the professionals we want the public to think of us as, and present ourselves accordingly. Only we can fix how the public perceives us, and as long as we can't get along amongst ourselves that is not likely to happen any time soon.
Yes, the flames, water, flashing lights, and big red trucks make for better action shots on the evening news. The FD just lucks into some of that PR due to the nature of their job. They also work at it - we participate in a program at the FD I work at where we go into the class room at various elementary schools multiple times throughout the schoolyear to acquaint the kids with firefighters. We do a safety day where the family can come out, see demonstrations - some of them hands on things even - to give them a better idea of what the FD does. I don't see EMS as a whole doing anything like this. We complain that we are the red-headed stepchild, that nobody wants to claim us. When we don't have a clue if we want to be a part of public safety, the medical world, or just stand on our own, how can we expect anyone else to accept us for what we are?
Ultimately, it is up to us to make the public understand why we are just as important, or maybe even more so in some respects, than fire, police, or whatever other agency or group you want to compare us to. It is time we, as a whole, stopped fighting amongst ourselves, started acting like the professionals we want the public to think of us as, and present ourselves accordingly. Only we can fix how the public perceives us, and as long as we can't get along amongst ourselves that is not likely to happen any time soon.
firetender
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On one level, Fire Departments have been organized and utilized since there have been towns on this continent.
Fire IS a primal thing that elicits support because everyone understands the rapidity and scope of destruction that it can bring.
Once Fire Departments engaged in prevention, and governmental institutions backed them up through establishing building codes, consumer product regulations and all, the frequency of fires lessened, yet the need for a strong FD presence continued because they became a part of an overall plan to minimize death and destruction.
FDs have had a few hundred years to evolve from an occasional rag-tag of people and equipment into a symbol of man's quest to insulate himself from the dangers of the environment. It is now one part of that system. Not the whole. Since it has had much success, it is considered indispensible -- even though less and less time is actually spent fighting fires.
In that process, it has been institutionalized such that the fortunes of politicians have been tied in to FDs being a symbol of their responsiveness to the people they represent.
EVERYBODY DIES, but NOBODY wants to burn to death in their sleep and nobody wants to get the blame for allowing that to happen. Perhaps that's the most primal fear of all, and the mechanism that keeps FDs where they're at.
Organized EMS really didn't even emerge on a widespread basis until the 1960's. Isn't that strange?
This is just my opener.
My burning question is why don't fire departments truly embrace EMS as important as putting out fires?
(He says as he dons his flak jacket and helmet!)
Fire IS a primal thing that elicits support because everyone understands the rapidity and scope of destruction that it can bring.
Once Fire Departments engaged in prevention, and governmental institutions backed them up through establishing building codes, consumer product regulations and all, the frequency of fires lessened, yet the need for a strong FD presence continued because they became a part of an overall plan to minimize death and destruction.
FDs have had a few hundred years to evolve from an occasional rag-tag of people and equipment into a symbol of man's quest to insulate himself from the dangers of the environment. It is now one part of that system. Not the whole. Since it has had much success, it is considered indispensible -- even though less and less time is actually spent fighting fires.
In that process, it has been institutionalized such that the fortunes of politicians have been tied in to FDs being a symbol of their responsiveness to the people they represent.
EVERYBODY DIES, but NOBODY wants to burn to death in their sleep and nobody wants to get the blame for allowing that to happen. Perhaps that's the most primal fear of all, and the mechanism that keeps FDs where they're at.
Organized EMS really didn't even emerge on a widespread basis until the 1960's. Isn't that strange?
This is just my opener.
My burning question is why don't fire departments truly embrace EMS as important as putting out fires?
(He says as he dons his flak jacket and helmet!)
JPINFV
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http://www.slate.com/id/2090573
"Are firefighters really "heroes?"
By Douglas Gantenbein
Two of the main points: [first one ties into the second one]
"Are firefighters really "heroes?"
By Douglas Gantenbein
Two of the main points: [first one ties into the second one]
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Ridryder911
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Because there Hero's!..... sorry, I just thought I would throw that in.
Like others described, most of the public is hood winked. Fire Departments usually hire personal from the neck down. It is a job that most little boys (and some girls) dream about when they were little, most outgrow that but still have a fondness for it.
The ones that do have an understanding within fire services realizes that PR is their key tool. Look at every trick or treat event, Jerry Lewis labor day telethon, some poor little kid that needs something and look who wants to get their picture taken with them? Even as I type there is a Fire Captain bragging about well they just burnt down a building. Now, this is the third different fire Capt. to discuss this one fire. A total loss, but the Fire Department is being praised upon how well they did their job. As well, what are they going to compare their rates to? Do we see EMS discussing how well we saved someone? This would be considered showboating, tacky and of course illegal.
Public knows that fires causes financial loss, injuries and death. Also something that they realize is that they know they are clueless about firefighting. ISO ratings also affect their pocketbook by homeowners insurance rates.
Also we charge for services. EMS haveto that is to survive. Most FD do not charge the homeowner themselves but their insurance company. So why support something that costs you? When in the public mind they are offering a "service" and EMS is a private sector ..doing their job. Even though the EMS maybe a third party, county, city service. I have even seen restaurants offer free or discounted prices to FD and not EMS because FD was public servants; even though the EMS was as well and not to say the firefighters were making three times the salary the EMS was.
Fire Service has powerful unions and representations in all levels of the government. Don't believe me, just check your lobbyist listings in your local state and those at the Capital, and who could turn down money and benefits to heroes? Ouch! Just think of the whiplash that would occur. Just ask a firefighter their representatives names, most could tell you immediately or at least point the union rep out that does have their telephone number on speed dial. Now, in in comparison ask an EMT. If they know what a representative is then I doubt they know who represents them. Most EMS personnel are not actively involved in any movements or legislative advances, rather they are way too busy work three jobs, griping about pay to purchase that star of life watch.
This topic is close to me, as I am working within my state for legislative changes. We are developing a coalition for EMS. Now, I have to admit the Fire Service has been outstanding in giving helpful advice and pulling strings and favors. Unfortunately, they also know without their vote we will not succeed, again a very powerful political group. They alike state police understand politics and what really matters to get their profession taken care of. Unfortunately, we are so fragmented it is hard to even describe EMS. Fire departments are perceived to be necessary alike law enforcement, but alas most citizens consider EMS as a luxury not a necessity.
R/r 911
Like others described, most of the public is hood winked. Fire Departments usually hire personal from the neck down. It is a job that most little boys (and some girls) dream about when they were little, most outgrow that but still have a fondness for it.
The ones that do have an understanding within fire services realizes that PR is their key tool. Look at every trick or treat event, Jerry Lewis labor day telethon, some poor little kid that needs something and look who wants to get their picture taken with them? Even as I type there is a Fire Captain bragging about well they just burnt down a building. Now, this is the third different fire Capt. to discuss this one fire. A total loss, but the Fire Department is being praised upon how well they did their job. As well, what are they going to compare their rates to? Do we see EMS discussing how well we saved someone? This would be considered showboating, tacky and of course illegal.
Public knows that fires causes financial loss, injuries and death. Also something that they realize is that they know they are clueless about firefighting. ISO ratings also affect their pocketbook by homeowners insurance rates.
Also we charge for services. EMS haveto that is to survive. Most FD do not charge the homeowner themselves but their insurance company. So why support something that costs you? When in the public mind they are offering a "service" and EMS is a private sector ..doing their job. Even though the EMS maybe a third party, county, city service. I have even seen restaurants offer free or discounted prices to FD and not EMS because FD was public servants; even though the EMS was as well and not to say the firefighters were making three times the salary the EMS was.
Fire Service has powerful unions and representations in all levels of the government. Don't believe me, just check your lobbyist listings in your local state and those at the Capital, and who could turn down money and benefits to heroes? Ouch! Just think of the whiplash that would occur. Just ask a firefighter their representatives names, most could tell you immediately or at least point the union rep out that does have their telephone number on speed dial. Now, in in comparison ask an EMT. If they know what a representative is then I doubt they know who represents them. Most EMS personnel are not actively involved in any movements or legislative advances, rather they are way too busy work three jobs, griping about pay to purchase that star of life watch.
This topic is close to me, as I am working within my state for legislative changes. We are developing a coalition for EMS. Now, I have to admit the Fire Service has been outstanding in giving helpful advice and pulling strings and favors. Unfortunately, they also know without their vote we will not succeed, again a very powerful political group. They alike state police understand politics and what really matters to get their profession taken care of. Unfortunately, we are so fragmented it is hard to even describe EMS. Fire departments are perceived to be necessary alike law enforcement, but alas most citizens consider EMS as a luxury not a necessity.
R/r 911
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JPINFV
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Of course another question is what can you measure? Cardiac arrest survival rates? Well, it doesn't matter if you have a medical first responder or a physician responding when the corpse has been dead for an hour. Simply put, EMS doesn't save lives. It keeps people from dieing in the first place. This [how many people does EMS keep from dieing] is much harder to measure than the amount of people brought back from being dead.
Topher38
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HA so true. I remeber I saw a news clip of a fire chief talking to the news crew.
The fire department was sweeping a bay for bodies/body parts. And the chief steps up to the camera and say, "Oh yea we find body parts in here all the time" as he smiles into the camera.
I laughed so hard. Ill try and find it for you guys. It was in New York.
My perspective, FWIW. In my little part of the world and Wisconsin, I feel (volunteer) EMS gets a better billing than fire. My county has 11 jurisdictions with a volunteer fire & EMS response, and another with volly fire and paid EMS. Of 11, 7 are first responder and 4 are BLS 911 transport.
We are lucky that our EMS (FR) is based from our fire response. We have 3 times the ems calls as fire, so the general public, for the most part, sees us as EMS more than fire. In other areas, the BLS rigs are very well funded, all by donations and budgets. Fundraisers do very well in our county.
That being said, I realize this topic was more geared toward the pros. I don't disagree with anyone's perspective, but maybe I might have a different view, as might others in the volly realm.
I used to consider myself fire, then EMS.
We are lucky that our EMS (FR) is based from our fire response. We have 3 times the ems calls as fire, so the general public, for the most part, sees us as EMS more than fire. In other areas, the BLS rigs are very well funded, all by donations and budgets. Fundraisers do very well in our county.
That being said, I realize this topic was more geared toward the pros. I don't disagree with anyone's perspective, but maybe I might have a different view, as might others in the volly realm.
I used to consider myself fire, then EMS.
Ridryder911
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Actually there are ways we can measure our worth. This can be done by the way of outcome based. Even with this preventive measures can be measured. Unfortunately, majority of EMS personnel cannot and do not understand such studies, and to make things worse very few scientific studies are performed to validate our existence.
As mentioned cardiac arrest does have a poor outcome, we need to recognize that treatment we perform also have multiple effects. One being preventative medicine. We may not think of our treatment as being preventative, but recognition of STEMI, treatment of obstructive diseases, and treatment of CHF, can be looked upon as a form of preventative medicine. Reduction of admissions to hospitals, reduction of aggressive treatments that are costly and are risky to the patient.
In comparison to the Fire Service we definitely cannot compare to their prevention services. Their actions have been so successful that fire suppression occurrences is reduced drastically so much that they have almost placed themselves out of business.
The mindset of the common laymen is that death is inevitable. Of course, no one wants injury to occur but realistically most people accept it as part of life, where as fire can be stopped easily firefighters.
We must change within ourselves and demonstrate that not just anyone can perform this job. That there is a difference between BLS and ALS care. That anyone can perform first aid/BLS care but those of the sick and injured need and deserve much more than that. Actual stabilization and treatment of those that need it and it should be accessible for those that need it. It should not be discriminatory for only those that live in metropolitan areas or wealthy communities. In comparison to other countries that have taken our ideology and continued and improved upon the system.
What I have found that the biggest enemy is ourselves. This can be by not participating in legislative affairs to not promoting professional ALS services to each community. The other large opposition is by EMT's themselves. Not endorsing and promoting that only the highest standards should be seeked, that having the ability of only providing BLS care is even an option. If EMT's were really and truly patient advocates they would promote ALS care on each and every EMS unit.
Fire Services may have some internal conflict among themselves, but they do not promote lower level methods of fire suppression. As well, they band together knowing that the public and legislature can see any disruption that might cause a poor image.
It appears that we have to put out many "fires" (pun intended) for EMS to be considered a profession. Those that are internally and those of the perception of the public. Until, we can actually verify we are truly their medical professionals, how we can expect them to think differently?
R/r 911
As mentioned cardiac arrest does have a poor outcome, we need to recognize that treatment we perform also have multiple effects. One being preventative medicine. We may not think of our treatment as being preventative, but recognition of STEMI, treatment of obstructive diseases, and treatment of CHF, can be looked upon as a form of preventative medicine. Reduction of admissions to hospitals, reduction of aggressive treatments that are costly and are risky to the patient.
In comparison to the Fire Service we definitely cannot compare to their prevention services. Their actions have been so successful that fire suppression occurrences is reduced drastically so much that they have almost placed themselves out of business.
The mindset of the common laymen is that death is inevitable. Of course, no one wants injury to occur but realistically most people accept it as part of life, where as fire can be stopped easily firefighters.
We must change within ourselves and demonstrate that not just anyone can perform this job. That there is a difference between BLS and ALS care. That anyone can perform first aid/BLS care but those of the sick and injured need and deserve much more than that. Actual stabilization and treatment of those that need it and it should be accessible for those that need it. It should not be discriminatory for only those that live in metropolitan areas or wealthy communities. In comparison to other countries that have taken our ideology and continued and improved upon the system.
What I have found that the biggest enemy is ourselves. This can be by not participating in legislative affairs to not promoting professional ALS services to each community. The other large opposition is by EMT's themselves. Not endorsing and promoting that only the highest standards should be seeked, that having the ability of only providing BLS care is even an option. If EMT's were really and truly patient advocates they would promote ALS care on each and every EMS unit.
Fire Services may have some internal conflict among themselves, but they do not promote lower level methods of fire suppression. As well, they band together knowing that the public and legislature can see any disruption that might cause a poor image.
It appears that we have to put out many "fires" (pun intended) for EMS to be considered a profession. Those that are internally and those of the perception of the public. Until, we can actually verify we are truly their medical professionals, how we can expect them to think differently?
R/r 911
Comparing “productivity” or yields of fire and ems is not a good idea. When a fire department is there to keep your entire city from burning down, it doesn’t really matter how their productivity compares to that of ems. They serve a different function.
babygirl2882
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In my town the Fire Department is also the ambulance, everyone is treated the same because most (80-90%) of the paid people are Paramedics and all of the volunteers are at least first responders then basics and some intermediates. I like this...one because I like fire and the medic part and two its one big family.
Ridryder911
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When and if ever we remove the public servant portion and actually be what we are really medical then we will be recognized as a professional.
Placing EMS units in a Fire Base is a smart as placing them in a sanitation division, (hey at least its considered public health).
The only reason EMS was ever considered into Fire was because no one else would do it and fireman (at that time) had very little to do. One of biggest mistakes. Rescue and EMS are total different avenues and actually have very little to do with each other, similar to fire suppression and medical care.
Want to perform fire suppression be a firefighter, want to perform prehospital medical care go into EMS. Fire suppression is hard enough without adding additional responsibilities. We have as much in common with law enforcement as fire services.
The major reason Fire Services wants EMS is for justification to exist.
R/r911
Placing EMS units in a Fire Base is a smart as placing them in a sanitation division, (hey at least its considered public health).
The only reason EMS was ever considered into Fire was because no one else would do it and fireman (at that time) had very little to do. One of biggest mistakes. Rescue and EMS are total different avenues and actually have very little to do with each other, similar to fire suppression and medical care.
Want to perform fire suppression be a firefighter, want to perform prehospital medical care go into EMS. Fire suppression is hard enough without adding additional responsibilities. We have as much in common with law enforcement as fire services.
The major reason Fire Services wants EMS is for justification to exist.
R/r911
Ridryder911
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I would like to ask, if would one consider EMS flight services be mainly based out of Fire Departments? Why not? In all actuality, there is relatively little difference in care, etc. except the mode of transportation. Even though, most EMS personnel would naturally associate flight services being associated with hospitals and being more "medical". Why would we should one associate EMS with fire then?
R/r 911
R/r 911
Ridryder hit the nail on the head! Ask any firfighter who their representative is and they will tell you...
EMS has not and does not have an organized body that represents our interests in government. How many bills are on the floor of your house that will effect who you are or what you do in EMS? Find out, lobby, come together as a collctive unit and have even a mere presence at your legislative meetings. I'll bet it would be amazing what we could do
EMS has not and does not have an organized body that represents our interests in government. How many bills are on the floor of your house that will effect who you are or what you do in EMS? Find out, lobby, come together as a collctive unit and have even a mere presence at your legislative meetings. I'll bet it would be amazing what we could do
This is not perfectly on topic but somewhat there.
Another reason (perhaps a large one) as to why I believe Fire and EMS should be separate would be the fact that many stations that require dual role employees have fire fighters that DO NOT want to be medics.
In my EMT course half the class was made up of fire fighters...many were meat heads that barely made it through basic course work and ALL only were becoming EMT's because it was required. Nearly all of them stated they didn't like the medical aspects and wanted to only fight fires.
Why have someone in a patient care profession who doesn't want to be there? Its not fair to them, I don't want to be required to become a FF why should they be required to become medics, and its not fair to patients who MAY receive worse care because their provider doesn't the drive/passion.
Not all FF's are like this, many of my instructors were FF's and fantastic medics that loved their job, but I hear stories all the time of those in Fire service who hate riding on the ambulances.
Feel free to slap me for posting this rant in the wrong place.:blush:
Another reason (perhaps a large one) as to why I believe Fire and EMS should be separate would be the fact that many stations that require dual role employees have fire fighters that DO NOT want to be medics.
In my EMT course half the class was made up of fire fighters...many were meat heads that barely made it through basic course work and ALL only were becoming EMT's because it was required. Nearly all of them stated they didn't like the medical aspects and wanted to only fight fires.
Why have someone in a patient care profession who doesn't want to be there? Its not fair to them, I don't want to be required to become a FF why should they be required to become medics, and its not fair to patients who MAY receive worse care because their provider doesn't the drive/passion.
Not all FF's are like this, many of my instructors were FF's and fantastic medics that loved their job, but I hear stories all the time of those in Fire service who hate riding on the ambulances.
Feel free to slap me for posting this rant in the wrong place.:blush:
emtwacker710
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I am a firefighter and EMT-B so I get them both, I think that people generally "like" firefighters over EMT's is because we have seen them more our whole life, you hear the air horn and siren and you go racing to see what it is...the big red truck..but people see ambulances and they are like oh well, whatever...yes some people do know of the great amount of work that we do in the back of the rig and on scene, but people just dont realize it, people have seen ff's over and over again saving houses, extricating people and they just have their mindset that oh, firefighters are heros, i don't even know what the ambulance guys do, that all, it's just because people can't really see what we do, because of privacy laws and all that stuff, thats all, but we really are the silent heros.
if we are talking about public perception, the reason fire is so much more recognized is that they ARE the definitive care... they come, they get the job done, and put out the fire...
ems is viewed as intermediaries, driving the patient to the hospital, where they can get the definitive care...
right or wrong, that is the public perception, and the reason why fire and ems are viewed so differently by the public.
if you ask the public what it is that we do to make a difference, what would the answers be? we drive quicker than they could?
would you even have to ask the question about firefighters??
see the problem?
ems is viewed as intermediaries, driving the patient to the hospital, where they can get the definitive care...
right or wrong, that is the public perception, and the reason why fire and ems are viewed so differently by the public.
if you ask the public what it is that we do to make a difference, what would the answers be? we drive quicker than they could?
would you even have to ask the question about firefighters??
see the problem?
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