Why do people value fire more than EMS?

[BossyCow]

Because there Hero's!..... sorry, I just thought I would throw that in.

Like others described, most of the public is hood winked. Fire Departments usually hire personal from the neck down. It is a job that most little boys (and some girls) dream about when they were little, most outgrow that but still have a fondness for it.

R/r 911

Excuse ME???????? From the neck down????? So, is that why most fire departments now require a minimum of a bachelors in fire science in addition to the paramedic licensure? Is that why the level of training and education firefighters are required to meet is at the same level and in addition to the EMS cert that most are required to have?

The days of the firefighter sitting on their butts around the TV are long gone. Today's firefighter generally works 8-5 doing building inspections, occupancy certifications, standby at all civic events and oh yeah.. FIRES!!!! Then get up in the middle of the night for the firefighting.

To say that firefighting isn't dangerous is not because it is no longer a dangerous environment, is not fair. What they do is still extremely dangerous. But, their level of training and professionalism has worked non-stop to avoid the dangers and minimize injuries which skews the statistics.

My husband is a career FF/EMT-P in a town with three mills, a boat yard and several other industrial businesses. Comparing running a code to a sawdust fire in a plywood mill where the dust in the air is burning and the facility was built in the early 70's.

Firefighters have the reputation they deserve. Its simply sour grapes to bash firefighters for the respect they have earned in a service rich in tradition and history, and with a national registry of who dies doing the job.

It's not like there is a limited amount of respect in the universe and in order to have some for EMS you have to take it away from firefighters! If EMS wants respect, earn it! In summation.... don't be bashin' on my sweetie!!!!

 

[JPINFV]

Excuse ME???????? From the neck down????? So, is that why most fire departments now require a minimum of a bachelors in fire science in addition to the paramedic licensure? Is that why the level of training and education firefighters are required to meet is at the same level and in addition to the EMS cert that most are required to have?

BS? Really? LAFD requires a high school diploma still.
http://www.lacity.org/per/psb/lafd_applyHow.htm

FDNY requires a whole 15 units of college courses. That's a whole gosh darn semester, hardly a 4 year degree. Of course, it's interesting to note that paramedics, according to the FDNY website, who are required to have more than a semester of education, even for the fastest paramedic program, get paid $10k less starting and top off at $18k less a year base salary.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_eligibility_requirements_080106.shtml


Neither does Boston FD.
http://www.cityofboston.gov/fire/hiring.asp

To say that firefighting isn't dangerous is not because it is no longer a dangerous environment, is not fair. What they do is still extremely dangerous. But, their level of training and professionalism has worked non-stop to avoid the dangers and minimize injuries which skews the statistics.

There's a distinct difference between "not dangerous" and "there's a whole boat load of more dangerous professions out there." Anything can be dangerous, after all look at how many EMS providers [fire based or otherwise] who die in the line of duty every year. Is it dangerous? Sure, but so are a bigillion other things and careers. The sole purpose of technology and training is to make a job as least dangerous as possible.

As far as skewing statistics, do you really want them to be "unskewed?" Face it, Alaskan crab fishing is more dangerous than fire fighting, and I pray that "most dangerous job in the world" is not one that any profession is striving for. But face it, fire fighters are still playing the "dangerous hero card" [see mantras such as, "We fight what you fear." See also Boston FD's attempt to suppress the fact that two of their fire fighters who died last year were on drugs [1 had 3 times the legal limit of alcohol and the other had trace amounts of cocaine]. Also strange is how both of their funerals were televised from start to finish. So, yes, they still are playing the hero card, even if the deaths were due to drugs].

My husband is a career FF/EMT-P in a town with three mills, a boat yard and several other industrial businesses. Comparing running a code to a sawdust fire in a plywood mill where the dust in the air is burning and the facility was built in the early 70's.

Cool. No one forced him to take the job either though. You know the risks when you take a job. I've already resigned my self to getting numerous needle sticks through out my career. It's not that I'm looking forward to it, but it's just a risk of providing medical care.

Firefighters have the reputation they deserve. Its simply sour grapes to bash firefighters for the respect they have earned in a service rich in tradition and history, and with a national registry of who dies doing the job.

Ah, so the keys to success is to let people die and brag about it?

It's not like there is a limited amount of respect in the universe and in order to have some for EMS you have to take it away from firefighters! If EMS wants respect, earn it!

There's a limited number of money, though. How about having the fire departments stop treating EMS like a money tree then? The simple fact is that funding is based, in part, on "respect" and the public can be very niggardly at times.

In summation.... don't be bashin' on my sweetie!!!!

:throws yellow flag and blows whistle:
Logical fallacy violation. Appeal to emotion. -5 yards and replay down.

 

[Zanerd]

Excuse ME???????? From the neck down????? So, is that why most fire departments now require a minimum of a bachelors in fire science in addition to the paramedic licensure? Is that why the level of training and education firefighters are required to meet is at the same level and in addition to the EMS cert that most are required to have?

The days of the firefighter sitting on their butts around the TV are long gone. Today's firefighter generally works 8-5 doing building inspections, occupancy certifications, standby at all civic events and oh yeah.. FIRES!!!! Then get up in the middle of the night for the firefighting.

To say that firefighting isn't dangerous is not because it is no longer a dangerous environment, is not fair. What they do is still extremely dangerous. But, their level of training and professionalism has worked non-stop to avoid the dangers and minimize injuries which skews the statistics.

My husband is a career FF/EMT-P in a town with three mills, a boat yard and several other industrial businesses. Comparing running a code to a sawdust fire in a plywood mill where the dust in the air is burning and the facility was built in the early 70's.

Firefighters have the reputation they deserve. Its simply sour grapes to bash firefighters for the respect they have earned in a service rich in tradition and history, and with a national registry of who dies doing the job.

It's not like there is a limited amount of respect in the universe and in order to have some for EMS you have to take it away from firefighters! If EMS wants respect, earn it! In summation.... don't be bashin' on my sweetie!!!!

Yep, I gotta weigh in too.

4 yr minimum? Not in my state....not even close. Although many are out there getting Bach. degrees and thats phenomenal.

FF's have tough jobs, no doubt, but I can see a critic's point:

Sitting on their rump - There are plenty of times they are training/doing drills but come on....how many fires are there? The name of the game is PREVENTION now. So I doubt its unheard of for FF's to sit around when they aren't fighting fires/training and get paid for it. Not to mention 24hr shifts = 10 days of work a month! That was a huge selling point many instructors use to get people to consider it as a profession. ( I know EMS does this as well...but pay grade is less and they respond to plenty of medical calls at night too!)

And the whole if EMS wants respect they should earn it thing...WHAT ELSE SHOULD BE DONE?!?! Saving lives from a medical aspect is worth less merit that pulling someone from a burning building?

Rant = Done

 

[BossyCow]

Anecdotal evidence from two dysfunctional systems doesn't impress me.
The industry standard is an increase in edcuational requirements with most departments looking for a minimum of a Bachelors in Fire Science. Not only that but they also want you walking in the door with your EMT-P.

I am well aware of the construction industry and the commercial fishing industry. Both are dangerous not only because of the environment but also due to an industry wide ignorance and unwillingness to follow basic safety guidelines. So, they can have the 'most injured' catagory and they are welcome to it. But to say that because there are a lot of piss poor safety programs out there in other industries hurting, killing and maiming workers, doesn't mean that firefighting is no longer dangerous.

The toxic chemicals present in fires are deadly. Burning structures fail and fall on firefighters. I have seen my husband's co-workers fall through soft spots in roofs, have light fixtures fall on their heads, and suffer multitudes of other strains, sprains and fx limbs due to the performance of their duties. Firefighting is a dangerous job. So it fell to #10 behind employers who have no problem killing their employees through greed and apathy, doesn't make a fire scene a playground.

Yes, my husband chose his profession, and he is well paid and well respected. The point I am still trying to make though, is that the respect that firefighters get is not respect taken away from you, your abilities or your profession. If you want some, earn it. There's plenty of respect out there, and you don't have to bash one profession in order to get some for you, all you have to do is maintain some professionalism in your demeanor, appearance and the performance of your job.

The comment about having to deal with needle sticks is a point well taken... but wait, my husband, as a paramedic is subjected to the same dangers... oh.. wait, and then he goes and fights fires in addition to the over 500 EMS calls his one-station agency responds to in a month.

No, we don't intend to allow people to die, unless of course, letting a few co-workers die is preferable to you to actually acting like a professional and working within your profession for higher standards of education and practice.

As far as the money, you have companies like AMR selling your civic governments the song and dance of 'Why pay professionals when we'll come in and contract this service for less money?' If you are not being paid enough out of the city coffers to suit you, perhaps you could ... oh I don't know.. attend a few city council meetings? Invite a few city/county/munincipal representatives for some ride alongs to see what you do, or maybe, just maybe, participate in some of the industry forums that set the policies and advocate for funding.

My bottom line stays the same.. if you want respect, earn it.. but bashing someone who already has it doesn't help your cause at all. Just make you look petty and whiny

 

[Ridryder911]

Excuse ME???????? From the neck down????? So, is that why most fire departments now require a minimum of a bachelors in fire science in addition to the paramedic licensure? Is that why the level of training and education firefighters are required to meet is at the same level and in addition to the EMS cert that most are required to have?

The days of the firefighter sitting on their butts around the TV are long gone. Today's firefighter generally works 8-5 doing building inspections, occupancy certifications, standby at all civic events and oh yeah.. FIRES!!!! Then get up in the middle of the night for the firefighting.

To say that firefighting isn't dangerous is not because it is no longer a dangerous environment, is not fair. What they do is still extremely dangerous. But, their level of training and professionalism has worked non-stop to avoid the dangers and minimize injuries which skews the statistics.

My husband is a career FF/EMT-P in a town with three mills, a boat yard and several other industrial businesses. Comparing running a code to a sawdust fire in a plywood mill where the dust in the air is burning and the facility was built in the early 70's.

Firefighters have the reputation they deserve. Its simply sour grapes to bash firefighters for the respect they have earned in a service rich in tradition and history, and with a national registry of who dies doing the job.

It's not like there is a limited amount of respect in the universe and in order to have some for EMS you have to take it away from firefighters! If EMS wants respect, earn it! In summation.... don't be bashin' on my sweetie!!!!

Bachelors degree as a requirement?...That is a rarity, not a common requirement. If most even have an GED it would be great! Line officers material usually have the minimum of an associate, some commanding may have a bachelor's degree or even a masters in municipal management. Again if the FD requires Paramedic to have a degree that is rarity not the norm. In fact many of the Paramedic programs are usually performed in-house. It was not that long ago IAFF attempted to use the Fire Medic-program in lieu of the national curriculum.

Overview what most Fire Departments require as entry levels and what "training" (noticed I did NOT say education) utilize. Many Fire Departments are even loosening the requirements of not requiring EMT training prior to employment with the emphasis that they will train their own while in academy.

Dangerous yes, no debate there; just alike many other professions. Want to compare numbers? Fisheries, loggers, even the pizza boy has a higher risk of death. They get paid to do their job, if they get injured or killed in the line of duty, that is a horrible tragedy but they understood the risks when they took the job. The same as a police officer that gets shot or a medic that gets exposed to VRSA, or gets smucked by a car while working a MVC. Their no more a hero than anyone else. Is there job important? Yes, again alike everyone else's. Just a job, like everyone else has to do. Difference is most have tact and do not publicize it as much.

Sour grapes, not at all, nope been there done that. I have a degree in Fire Science & Safety Engineering from OSU as well as my pics are still in IFSTA manuals, and not to say ten years as a line officer. So I do undertand the brotherhood.

One of the main reasons fire provides EMS is to justify themselves and to ensure productivity and funding. Fifteen years ago most FD's would not even touch EMS, now due to low fire suppression numbers and productivity; EMS is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

In reality Fire Suppression Services has nothing to do with medical .. period. It is hard enough be thorough in fire suppression, hazardous material, investigations and preventions. There are only so many hats one can wear without being diluted in one area. Are there great EMS in Fire Services? Sure. Just like there are great EMS in hospitals, private sectors, and third parties.

We need to observe what our neighbors do up North. Fire Service is not responsible for EMS (as they understand it is totally different profession) but the Fire Service responds for rescue, assisting EMS. It is a partnership with the patient as being the primary goal.

This is not measuring match, but when EMS only receives a quarter of federal grants and funding for doing the same or even providing that same job in which that is their primary job, that is not fair. The reason again they have a great marketing tool. Something we should take notes on....

*Not bashin your sweetie.. just in general comparrision

R/r 911

 

[skyemt]

bashing firefighting?
why are you guys so defensive?

it's ok to promote ems without putting down firefighting...
it's ok to promote more education without putting down vollies...

jeez, it's always the same out here... have to put a group down to make your points?

use your heads... it's not a zero sum game... it's ok for firefighting to be heroic and a dangerous job without minimizing ems...

and no, i'm not a firefighter.

 

[Zanerd]

What areas of the country require 4 yr degrees?

No major metro area of my state does and neither do the 2 largest cities (NY,LA)

:huh:

 

[Ridryder911]

bashing firefighting?
why are you guys so defensive?

it's ok to promote ems without putting down firefighting...
it's ok to promote more education without putting down vollies...

jeez, it's always the same out here... have to put a group down to make your points?

use your heads... it's not a zero sum game... it's ok for firefighting to be heroic and a dangerous job without minimizing ems...

and no, i'm not a firefighter.

It's obvious you have never attempted to get state legislation, obtain funding and education programs for EMS.

I have been diligent in obtaining funding, education, for all of those involved in EMS. The problem is that Fire Service alike many other agencies is for their needs and with this wants their viewpoint to be the primary and only goal. As discussed earlier, fire service has a great representation in lobbying and political action groups (PAC's) per paid lobbyist. Something, I wished majority of EMS had but unfortunately cannot afford. If one does not agree to fire departments way or beliefs action either against or no support will be given.

This is the problem I am having at this time. Either our way or no way, no compromises even though the outcome would be in the best for patient care. Do I understand, sure but when looking at the whole picture, what is really the primary interest or goal?

This type of events goes upward at the national level. Look over "Project Homeland" grants and monies. In comparison which or whom received the most and for what? Very few EMS services received monies and grants.

EMS services are closing daily, alone in my state 40 closed within the past five years. If you are an EMT and get killed in the line of duty beside a firefighter, compare what benefits and monies would be distributed in comparison... Why the difference?

The same as with volunteer agencies. Do a brief history check on EMS and find out the reason there is no scope of training and why the curriculum was watered down. Again, special interest groups who feels that their needs supersedes that of patient care. Many feel that their "feel good" is more essential than providing full time ALS patient care. Again, there are many that have to depend upon such services but ironically they are not the ones that usually complain.

All we are asking is to be treated as equal without having to fight or justify our self worth. The business is hard enough, and unfortunately due to the low pay and long hours, most EMT's cannot offer financial support or even time as in comparison to those involved in union or large professional organizations. There are very few organizations that are for the street medic (EMS only). Why? Because, again due to the fragmentation of our business. It would be nice to see EMS be represented and obtain funding without sacrificing to others.

R/r 911

 

[MedicPrincess]

Lets not forget, FF "have each others backs!" Think about it...short of expoitation of a child, it almost does not matter what a FF does, when they have gotten into some sort of mess the wagons get circled and all of his "brothers" take care of him.

As EMS personnel we stand, waiting with baited breath, for one of our fellows "Ambulance people" to mess up. That way we can take it and run with it and make sure everyone is aware of it.


Think of an all to common example....

EMS person is having an affair with a FF. One or both of them is married. Eventually, it is figured out and word gets out. The FF may talk about it with each other, and may even take their "brother" aside and say something like "Dude, not cool." The EMS side finds out and everyone from all memebers of the service to the clerk at the gas station are talking about it....and not one of them will say a thing to the EMS person involved. Its too good of a story to let die.

FF gets pregnant. Congrats to her. She'll be a great mom. Guess she shouldn't be packing out, doing the extrication, ect.

Paramedic gets prengant. Its news. Whose baby is it? I think its our supervisors. No, I think its that FF she has been messing with. WHAT!! She has been messing with a FF, I thought she was sleeping with that cop! No, I heard she was sleeping with some guy from the next county.
Either way, she better still be able to do her dang job!

FF gets fired. Here come the wagons. Was it really justified? Did he get enough chances? You can't fire him for that!

Paramedic gets fired......wait, Paramedics are to hard to come by, they rarely get fired.....make that EMT gets fired.... Dude, I heard she cussed out the VP. No, I heard she refused to take a call. Naaa, her attitude in general was crap. Did you hear they had to call SO to escort her off the property? No way!!! Yea, they almost had to taze her. Wonder if she will still be sleeping with the supervisor now that she's gone or if he will move along?

FF take care of their own. EMS eats their young.

 

[triemal04]

Wow...one of the most ignorant, idiotic and infuriating posts that I've seen lately.

BS? Really? LAFD requires a high school diploma still.
http://www.lacity.org/per/psb/lafd_applyHow.htm

FDNY requires a whole 15 units of college courses. That's a whole gosh darn semester, hardly a 4 year degree. Of course, it's interesting to note that paramedics, according to the FDNY website, who are required to have more than a semester of education, even for the fastest paramedic program, get paid $10k less starting and top off at $18k less a year base salary.
Neither does Boston FD.

It's nice to see that Bossy feels so strongly about this, but she's wrong. As are you, and is Ridryder. Though I'm at least willing to say that he's probably right for his own area. Nationwide it is not becoming anywhere near common to require a bachelors degree for an entry-level job. End of story. Lots (and lots) of areas are beginning to require an Associates degree in something which is good, but not beyond that. Even at the company officer level a 4-yr degree is still not required that often.

The same goes for paramedic requirements; nationwide it'll probably be easier if you are a medic, but probably not a requirement. Unless the position requires it in the first place. EMT certification though...unless it's a larger department, that really is becoming a standard to at least be a basic.

There's a distinct difference between "not dangerous" and "there's a whole boat load of more dangerous professions out there." Anything can be dangerous, after all look at how many EMS providers [fire based or otherwise] who die in the line of duty every year. Is it dangerous? Sure, but so are a bigillion other things and careers. The sole purpose of technology and training is to make a job as least dangerous as possible.
As far as skewing statistics, do you really want them to be "unskewed?" Face it, Alaskan crab fishing is more dangerous than fire fighting, and I pray that "most dangerous job in the world" is not one that any profession is striving for. But face it, fire fighters are still playing the "dangerous hero card" [see mantras such as, "We fight what you fear." See also Boston FD's attempt to suppress the fact that two of their fire fighters who died last year were on drugs [1 had 3 times the legal limit of alcohol and the other had trace amounts of cocaine]. Also strange is how both of their funerals were televised from start to finish. So, yes, they still are playing the hero card, even if the deaths were due to drugs].

Other than showing that you're a ignorant about quite a bit, I don't know what your point is. You had also better get your :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing facts straight, and unless you were inside that restaurant you have no clue whether or not drugs/alcohol played any part in their deaths. And given that the fire had been burning for quite awhile in a void space, unknown to ANYONE onscene...ignorance on your part in saying that, plain and simple. (not to exscuse either of the 2 in any way, but to not know squat about what happened/why it happened is plain wrong)

Nobody says that firefighting is the most dangerous job. Except maybe whacker Jon down at the volly department. You know, the gomer who wears one of the "I fight what you fear" t-shirts. It is dangerous, and, surprisingly getting MORE dangerous now due to cheaper, lightweight building construction being the norm, the aging buildings from past booms, increased petroleum based products in houses, diminished staffing on fire apparatus...list goes on. Again, to say that it isn't dangerous or attempt to downplay it is...well...ignorant. As is to strut around bragging about something that you have never seen.

Ah, so the keys to success is to let people die and brag about it?

No firefighter has ever bragged about losing one of our brothers. Ever.

These debates are always great when they come up. People :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and moan about firefighters involved in EMS, they :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and moan about firefighters in general, and yet, it is extremely rare (with about 3 exceptions) for anyone to try and come up with a solution other than "take EMS away from fire now! Nownownow!" Nobody (excpet for those 3 exceptions) talks about educating the public on what EMS really is and what it needs to thrive, nobody talks about getting EMS workers to band together and start the same legislation and publicity drives that fire departments have, nobody is willing to even admit that EMS has flaws with how it's run and what needs to be done so that it CAN'T be fire based. I guess that's not to surprising...it is easier to make a broad statement and then never try and work to getting it into reality.

if we are talking about public perception, the reason fire is so much more recognized is that they ARE the definitive care... they come, they get the job done, and put out the fire...

ems is viewed as intermediaries, driving the patient to the hospital, where they can get the definitive care...

right or wrong, that is the public perception, and the reason why fire and ems are viewed so differently by the public.

if you ask the public what it is that we do to make a difference, what would the answers be? we drive quicker than they could?

would you even have to ask the question about firefighters??

see the problem?

This is probably one of the only, (if not the only) posts in this thread that hits the nail on the head, and puts it simply enough so that even the dumbest whacker out there can understand it. Add in that EMS has been around for just over 30 years and fire for well over 200...spot on.

And what is needed to fix the problems listed? Educating the public, educating ourselves, getting a union/consortium/group/PAC/hen party together made up of EMS workers, for EMS workers to be able to get our voice out there. But does anyone ever propose that? Rarely. Instead it's more fire sucks, it's not dangerous, they're evil!

Really, it get's old after awhile.

 

[Flight-LP]

Interesting responses from all. You can definately tell a lot about a person by their postings. It is easy to identify firefighters, their spouses, and even to some extent, their geographic location. This thread started out with a question and a request for open discussion. Opinions were welcomed and at first there were a few really good responses from young and old.

But then, someone had to go and make it personal. Then accusations began to fly. Why, why, why?

Heaven forbid someone have an opinion not agreed with by others.............

As far as my opinion goes, I value and respect most of my local Fire Fighters. They perform a job up and beyond the typical call of duty. Most of our local departments can justify their existance by their actions and operations. But several can't. They sit on their butts, do absolutely no PR or prevention, and can't hit a fire with water to save their life. This is the example I initally represented. My point is this, if you are not going to define or justify your purpose, let someone else do so for the sake of the community. If there is tax money going to an incompetant fire department and the local BLS EMS service is struggling, then hero card or not, the FD should not get that money. Just like respect, tax money should be earned. Thats all I was pointing to, nothing more. Man, perception is strong when fueled by emotion!

 

[Flight-LP]

Oh and for the record, out of 25 paid departments in the Houston metro area, not one of them requires a Bachelor's degree, only 4 required Associates, and all of those would waive that requirement for experience......

 

[JPINFV]

Other than showing that you're a ignorant about quite a bit, I don't know what your point is. You had also better get your :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing facts straight, and unless you were inside that restaurant you have no clue whether or not drugs/alcohol played any part in their deaths. And given that the fire had been burning for quite awhile in a void space, unknown to ANYONE onscene...ignorance on your part in saying that, plain and simple. (not to exscuse either of the 2 in any way, but to not know squat about what happened/why it happened is plain wrong)

I'll accept that the "trace amounts of cocaine," while completely inappropriate, may or may not have affected have impaired Payne. I honestly have a hard time believing that one can reach a blood alcohol level of 0.27 (or even 0.17 to adjust for the possibility of decomposition affecting the result] without either being noticed or being impaired. Remember, that fire happened at night. Unless Boston FD starts shifts in the evening, both were doing drugs while on duty.

As far as the point, this is an example of the fire department playing the hero card, even after it became evident that they were holding up on a pedestal people who were using drugs while on duty. You don't just accidentally get drunk or use cocaine. Mind you, this all played out after both fire fighters funerals were televised live on just about all of the local broadcast TV channels.

Nobody says that firefighting is the most dangerous job. Except maybe whacker Jon down at the volly department. You know, the gomer who wears one of the "I fight what you fear" t-shirts. It is dangerous, and, surprisingly getting MORE dangerous now due to cheaper, lightweight building construction being the norm, the aging buildings from past booms, increased petroleum based products in houses, diminished staffing on fire apparatus...list goes on. Again, to say that it isn't dangerous or attempt to downplay it is...well...ignorant. As is to strut around bragging about something that you have never seen.

1st point, technically GOMER is misapplied in this case, seeing how it has nothing to do with an emergency room. [GOMER=Get Out of My ER]

2nd point: I wonder how in the world how so many t-shirt companies come to think that there's any sort of market involved with T-shirts like that.

3rd point: You want to know what accounts for half of all fire fighter LODDs? Physical fitness, and staffing size [per the fire service's own data service. Whats even more interesting is that the majority of the deaths could be attributed to human error, "misused or malfunctioning PPE" [quotes used because that category included seat belts and, personally, I don't equate seat belts as being a PPE] or fitness. So apparently, the greatest danger that fire fighters face is themselves.

No firefighter has ever bragged about losing one of our brothers. Ever.

Bragging? No. Will they let anyone forget? No [see coverage about the Boston incident]. The line between the two? Slim, especially used as an argument/pawn for more funding/pay [see Boston fire fighters current fight against drug screening]

These debates are always great when they come up. People :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and moan about firefighters involved in EMS, they :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and moan about firefighters in general, and yet, it is extremely rare (with about 3 exceptions) for anyone to try and come up with a solution other than "take EMS away from fire now! Nownownow!" Nobody (excpet for those 3 exceptions) talks about educating the public on what EMS really is and what it needs to thrive, nobody talks about getting EMS workers to band together and start the same legislation and publicity drives that fire departments have, nobody is willing to even admit that EMS has flaws with how it's run and what needs to be done so that it CAN'T be fire based. I guess that's not to surprising...it is easier to make a broad statement and then never try and work to getting it into reality.

I can't agree with you more on that point. Unfortunately what is needed to really move EMS away from the fire department and get it the recognition it deserves is more education [not saying fire fighters are more educated, but there's only so many hats that one can wear before they all fall off]. Unfortunately, requiring more education goes against their own immediate self interest [see any thread that suggests that 110 hours [per NHTSA guidelines] isn't enough time to educate a proper health care provider].

 

[Ridryder911]

What does "get old" is that EMS does not ever get recognition in comparison to other public safety providers. Don't believe me? Check out your local retirement and benefit packages (if you have one). See what would occur if your EMS partner gets creamed by a drunk driver and then to see if it was a firefighter.

If the family gets enough to plant the poor medic in the ground they will be lucky, and the firefighter "dust to dust" will be paraded down the road as will the bill be picked by the locals. Both of them were there for the good of others. Just one of them didnt happen to be "one of the chosen". I am glad that firefighters get great benefits but let's share the pie and we'll even let them keep the glory.

I am fighting the discrimination against medics. Ironically, EMS is one of the few public safety jobs that actually requires education prior to employment.
Most hire for their physical agility's and then are placed into an academy style training center.

I deal with IAFF and associated representatives now on a weekly basis, along with their legislative affairs representatives. So I think I have a little handle other than anecdotal feelings.

I have no problem of their involvement, what I do have a problem is their clear intentions of take-over in EMS. Even some of their proposal that it would costs more but "in the long run be better for the community". Their ideologies that they are the only one eligible and qualified is ludicrous. Fire Departments was only involved due to no one would take EMS at the time, not that they had special skills in medicine.

Again, brief history compare the Fire Services response to EMS even 12 years ago and now. The reason again is fire suppression responses are down (which is good) and to justify existence and personnel one has better have something for them to do.

Yes, it would be nice that traditional EMS could have the same representation. It is doubtful we will see a lot of activity due to apathy in medics and many EMT's only using EMS as a stepping stone into Fire Service or another profession. As well, it is hard to be motivated after responding to 15 emergency calls a shift and having to work another job to make poverty salary.

I am not whining, just want fair shake for those in EMS.

 

[Grady_emt]

Fire is liked better because they have bigger units







get your mind out of the gutter, I was talking about their trucks:lol:

 

[triemal04]

I'll accept that the "trace amounts of cocaine," while completely inappropriate, may or may not have affected have impaired Payne. I honestly have a hard time believing that one can reach a blood alcohol level of 0.27 (or even 0.17 to adjust for the possibility of decomposition affecting the result] without either being noticed or being impaired. Remember, that fire happened at night. Unless Boston FD starts shifts in the evening, both were doing drugs while on duty.

As far as the point, this is an example of the fire department playing the hero card, even after it became evident that they were holding up on a pedestal people who were using drugs while on duty. You don't just accidentally get drunk or use cocaine. Mind you, this all played out after both fire fighters funerals were televised live on just about all of the local broadcast TV channels.

Wow. So well thought out. Boston does start some of their shifts in the evening. Once again, proving that you don't know what you are talking about. Coke stays in the system for a couple of days-more than trace amounts would have been found if it had been done on duty. How often have you hauled a drunk who was conscious and relatively alert at .30 or more? Again, not exscusing what those 2 did in anyway, but, again, to say that they died because of that without having a clue about what you're talking about is sheer ignorance. But you probably allready knew that didn't you?

Right or wrong, they still died on duty. They still died doing their job. End of story. Did the local try to keep the test results from getting air time? Yeah, since they saw that as their job, to keep those men's familes from the extra grief and to protect their names. Is that right? Yeah for the most part, it is. Do you honestly think that an EMS agency wouldn't (and haven't) done the same when one of their employees was caught screwing up? If you do...guess what that's a sign of?

1st point, technically GOMER is misapplied in this case, seeing how it has nothing to do with an emergency room. [GOMER=Get Out of My ER]

2nd point: I wonder how in the world how so many t-shirt companies come to think that there's any sort of market involved with T-shirts like that.

3rd point: You want to know what accounts for half of all fire fighter LODDs? Physical fitness, and staffing size [per the fire service's own data service. Whats even more interesting is that the majority of the deaths could be attributed to human error, "misused or malfunctioning PPE" [quotes used because that category included seat belts and, personally, I don't equate seat belts as being a PPE] or fitness. So apparently, the greatest danger that fire fighters face is themselves.

1. Oh please. Give it up.
2. Because there are a lot of jacka$$ vollies out there and an even bigger number of jacka$$es in the general public. Your average professional firefighter really doesn't wear crap like that. (unfortunately, this relates to our own problem that we have within our ranks)
3. What is your point? Do you have one here? I didn't think so. The job is still dangerous. If you didn't know, people don't have to die in the line of duty for something to be dangerous. Otherwise being a cabbie in some cities would be perfectly safe. End o' story boyo. You may also want to look over your link since it really doesn't bring anything new, change anything, or do more than prove something I said (about staffing) earlier.

Bragging? No. Will they let anyone forget? No [see coverage about the Boston incident]. The line between the two? Slim, especially used as an argument/pawn for more funding/pay [see Boston fire fighters current fight against drug screening]

Ignorance is bliss isn't it? In that case we had best stop celebrating veterans day, memorial day, get rid of "the tomb of the unknown soldier," Arlington Cemetary, future 9/11 Memorial, all charities for dead police, all charities for dead EMS personell, hell, all charities for anyone dead, since afterall, that's just bragging about them being dead. (see the staffing problems mentioned in that nice cluster 4 in your link) If you really want to argue this, may I suggest that first you educate yourself on the subject, and not just what you see in the news in your small part of the word, m'kay?

It's nice to see that you have such a well-rounded and open mind, but maybe you should focus it on getting your degree and leave this alone. It's also nice to see that you agree that more education is needed, but also nice to see that it took someone else bringing this up before you spoke up. (which helps prove my point that very few people are willing to actually speak about what needs to be done) Instead, your first posts were just potshots at firefighting. Nice job.

 

[JPINFV]

Do you honestly think that an EMS agency wouldn't (and haven't) done the same when one of their employees was caught screwing up? If you do...guess what that's a sign of?

Whether I think that they would have done it or not is irrelevant to my judgment on if covering up drug use and using drug tests as a pawn is right or wrong. Interestingly enough, not everyone's opinion of right or wrong is dependent on if they are associated with an organization or not. If an EMS agency tried to cover it up it would be just as bad and just as wrong.

1. Oh please. Give it up.

You were the one that used the phrase, not me.

2. Because there are a lot of jacka$$ vollies out there and an even bigger number of jacka$$es in the general public. Your average professional firefighter really doesn't wear crap like that. (unfortunately, this relates to our own problem that we have within our ranks)

One bad apple does tend to spoil the bunch and the administrations are more than willing to use that card for public support.

3. What is your point? Do you have one here? I didn't think so. The job is still dangerous. If you didn't know, people don't have to die in the line of duty for something to be dangerous. Otherwise being a cabbie in some cities would be perfectly safe. End o' story boyo. You may also want to look over your link since it really doesn't bring anything new, change anything, or do more than prove something I said (about staffing) earlier.

Ok, so there's nothing new that the majority of most fire department deaths are preventable? Cool beans. Of course coming out and saying "well, our death rate is due to people not wearing seat belts and being out of shape" really kinda of kills that hero card.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it? In that case we had best stop celebrating veterans day, memorial day, get rid of "the tomb of the unknown soldier," Arlington Cemetary, future 9/11 Memorial, all charities for dead police, all charities for dead EMS personell, hell, all charities for anyone dead, since afterall, that's just bragging about them being dead. (see the staffing problems mentioned in that nice cluster 4 in your link) If you really want to argue this, may I suggest that first you educate yourself on the subject, and not just what you see in the news in your small part of the word, m'kay?

Yep, requiring what is, in essence, a state funeral is the same as all of those. :blink: [nice try at the straw man argument though]

It's nice to see that you have such a well-rounded and open mind, but maybe you should focus it on getting your degree and leave this alone. It's also nice to see that you agree that more education is needed, but also nice to see that it took someone else bringing this up before you spoke up. (which helps prove my point that very few people are willing to actually speak about what needs to be done) Instead, your first posts were just potshots at firefighting. Nice job.

Do I detect a bit of sarcasm? I'm not exactly the one here that is, in essence, posting ad hominem attacks in this discussion. As far as posting about education, you apparently missed the thread that I started before this discussion even started. Also, amazingly enough, this isn't the only forum I post on, of which I have been involved with multiple threads dealing with education.

To be honest, if you're going to sit there and continue to utilize ad hominem attacks, then I see no point in furthering this discussion. There's no point in trying to discuss and debate with someone who thinks name calling is the way to win a discussion.

 

[bonedog]

My local first responders are great. They will lift and move anything and take direction well. They are the keenest at CPR, make it like a competition.

Who wouldn't want to be a fireman. They get paid to work out, they have a list of any tradesman you may need to help out around the place, at special rates. Heck they'll even come over and help you move-IN BETWEEN THEIR NIGHTS.

Best of all, TWO BARBEQUES AND TWO SLEEP OVERS.

The best thing that happened to my service was unionizing. That being said, and even though we are a provincial service, covering the largest area in the world, we still suck hind tit as far as raises and staffing levels. (no way I could ever help someone to move on my split, little own between my nights)

 

[triemal04]

Whether I think that they would have done it or not is irrelevant to my judgment on if covering up drug use and using drug tests as a pawn is right or wrong. Interestingly enough, not everyone's opinion of right or wrong is dependent on if they are associated with an organization or not. If an EMS agency tried to cover it up it would be just as bad and just as wrong.

Nicely done with the ducking and dodging. I do like it when someone try to twist the facts to suit their view. Fun to watch.

One bad apple does tend to spoil the bunch and the administrations are more than willing to use that card for public support.

I get it, you don't have a lot of experience with fire departments aside from maybe some smalltown whackerland, you don't have to keep proving it. Trust me on this, nobody in the ranks of professional firefighers likes those shirts very much...they're just tacky...pathetic...stupid...help to make us all look like a bunch of clowns...I can go on, but it should be clear. Fortunately, a lot of people recognize this problem are work towards getting it snuffed. Nice to see that happen for a change, isn't it?

Ok, so there's nothing new that the majority of most fire department deaths are preventable? Cool beans. Of course coming out and saying "well, our death rate is due to people not wearing seat belts and being out of shape" really kinda of kills that hero card.

Yeah. The statistics on firefighter deaths are published every year. And for the most part the number 1 killer alternates between heartattacks and vehicle accidents. Really :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty, but again, a problem that many departments are addressing (at least professional departments...this is NOT to open that debate, but the stats are for paid and vollies both) Regardless of that, it doesn't change my point: you don't have to die for a job to be dangerous. Hell, given the number of line of duty deaths for EMS workers, by your apparent reasoning it's a perfectly safe job.

Yep, requiring what is, in essence, a state funeral is the same as all of those. [nice try at the straw man argument though]

Don't blame me because you made a worthless point. It's not a state funeral by any means, and, (ignorance again) not the same for every department. Sorry. Try again. But, hey, if it is a state funeral (your words) then it's even more like those things I listed.

Do I detect a bit of sarcasm? I'm not exactly the one here that is, in essence, posting ad hominem attacks in this discussion. As far as posting about education, you apparently missed the thread that I started before this discussion even started. Also, amazingly enough, this isn't the only forum I post on, of which I have been involved with multiple threads dealing with education.

To be honest, if you're going to sit there and continue to utilize ad hominem attacks, then I see no point in furthering this discussion. There's no point in trying to discuss and debate with someone who thinks name calling is the way to win a discussion.

Yes and each time you complained about ad hominem attacks. Boohoo, I'm sorry, but when you come out with ignorant statements that are flat out wrong, it's going to get some people upset. Like I said, if you want to argue something, it's best to be well versed in the topic. You aren't there yet.

And no, I don't really care what you said in an entirely different thread, here, instead of attempting to contribute you instead went directly to taking potshots at firefighting. Sorry, but you brought this on yourself.

Anyway, feel free to pick and choose what you want from my responce. Really, it's ok.

 

[triemal04]

What does "get old" is that EMS does not ever get recognition in comparison to other public safety providers. Don't believe me? Check out your local retirement and benefit packages (if you have one). See what would occur if your EMS partner gets creamed by a drunk driver and then to see if it was a firefighter.
Unfortunately that's true all to often; not always but way to much. The answer to it, (as I've said before) is that EMS workers need to get some kind of organization together to start their lobbying and compete with IAFF in their own game.

If the family gets enough to plant the poor medic in the ground they will be lucky, and the firefighter "dust to dust" will be paraded down the road as will the bill be picked by the locals. Both of them were there for the good of others. Just one of them didnt happen to be "one of the chosen". I am glad that firefighters get great benefits but let's share the pie and we'll even let them keep the glory.
Again, not always true; remember not every firefighter that dies gets any type of parade; the funeral is part of our own tradition, if even that happens. But yeah, it should change and hopefully will. See the above for how.

I am fighting the discrimination against medics. Ironically, EMS is one of the few public safety jobs that actually requires education prior to employment.
Most hire for their physical agility's and then are placed into an academy style training center.
Not so much...while ensuring that a canidate can complete the intial training and actually perform, many physical agility tests are VERY watered down from what they used to be (that's a whole 'nother topic). The most important part is really the interviews...remember, many skills can be taught, but you can't teach someone how to have a personality. And given that we have to live with each other for, on average, a third of our lives while we're working, personality (which includes the ability to learn) is pretyy d@mned important. (actually something I'd like to see stressed more in EMS; don't just look at someones credentials but how they interact with people; good indicator for how they'll interact with the public)

I deal with IAFF and associated representatives now on a weekly basis, along with their legislative affairs representatives. So I think I have a little handle other than anecdotal feelings.Maybe better than some, i'll give you that, but not entirely, sorry.

I have no problem of their involvement, what I do have a problem is their clear intentions of take-over in EMS. Even some of their proposal that it would costs more but "in the long run be better for the community". Their ideologies that they are the only one eligible and qualified is ludicrous. Fire Departments was only involved due to no one would take EMS at the time, not that they had special skills in medicine.
I can't speak for your area, but in some areas in very well may be in the public's best interest to have a fire (or third service would be best) based system...really it's going to depend on a lot. What's true in one area won't be somewhere else.

Again, brief history compare the Fire Services response to EMS even 12 years ago and now. The reason again is fire suppression responses are down (which is good) and to justify existence and personnel one has better have something for them to do.
Same old same old.

Yes, it would be nice that traditional EMS could have the same representation. It is doubtful we will see a lot of activity due to apathy in medics and many EMT's only using EMS as a stepping stone into Fire Service or another profession. As well, it is hard to be motivated after responding to 15 emergency calls a shift and having to work another job to make poverty salary.
Wait...are you saying that EMS workers aren't willing to make some personal sacrifices to better EMS in the US? Interesting. Are you also saying that many don't care what happens to EMS? Very interesting. That aside, I don't have to much sympathy, I'm sorry. If people really want change it's time to stop using fire as the big bad boogeyman, step up and start doing something. Honestly, do you always think that fire departments got the things they have now? If you do it's time for you to look at your history. We got these things by going out and working for them, same as EMS needs to do. Yes, it takes time for it to happen, and it won't be fun going up against IAFF, but it can be done. It just needs to start, preferable yesterday.

I am not whining, just want fair shake for those in EMS.

I agree, so do I. But, as I said above and previously, it's pathetic to read threads like this and see people complain about fire departments getting all the glory and perks when very few are willing to go out and try and make changes. Nobody wants to make any sacrifices on their part, they just want the benefits. If you are then good, I truly hope that it helps and that you can get others to do the same, but you are one of the few unfortunately.