What if EMT/Paramedic was one program instead of 2?

I think you are confusing the training by medical model and the nursing model.

EMTs do not practice medicine.

I may be confusing the two, but I do believe that EMS practitioners are engaged in the practice of medicine. It's not first aid, and it's not "just emergency care." It's medicine -- assess, plan, and treat. If I find a patient whose BGL is 30 but he's conscious and able to swallow, I'm going to treat him. That's medicine. The same thing applies to assessment of any medical problem or traumatic injury. Not to mention that transport is a treatment all its own -- it's the ultimate consult.

nope not really....it took me 3 months to be an EMT. I have been in school the past 4 years to be an RN. :wacko:

True, true. :P
I meant more that we're not trying to be attacking or anything, just having an interesting discussion.
 
Agreed, but would certainly be a path for Medics to take should they choose. And like I have always told people about my time in the ED. You will learn more in a year in the ED, then you would spending 5 years in the field.

Completely agree. I'd love to see rural EDs staffed with a PA and a couple medics, or an urban ED with the trauma rooms staffed by MDs and medics. Of course, any ED could easily have EMT-Ps and EMTs working in it, no question.
 
In one sense, you're right -- the emergency skills that a paramedic can perform is broader than the set of RN skills (though I believe an acute care NP can reach the level of skills that a medic can provide, viz

Say what? Ok I am going to get a little defensive about that. An ACNP goes through the most education of any NP besides CRNA. They function at the same level as a PA or resident. So you think a paramedic is comparable to a PA? Maybe in CA

At my hospital the ACNPs place chest tubes, central lines, Art lines, intubate, etc..... Way beyond the knowledge and skill of a paramedic or other nurses.
 
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No doubt. ACNP is lightyears of education beyond a medic or RN. But they are extremely specialized with much greater training, I dont think anyone is going argue that... Ever
 
Completely agree. I'd love to see rural EDs staffed with a PA and a couple medics, or an urban ED with the trauma rooms staffed by MDs and medics. Of course, any ED could easily have EMT-Ps and EMTs working in it, no question.

It is common to find medics working triage and advanced or critical care medics working the er orunit floor. Some run codes, suture, cast, or work the flood depending where they are and their function. Some rural ers are staffed by advanced or critical care medics and rns. This is not everywhere up here but there are areas or regions where it is common.
 
That is certainly another reason.

Consider this, What seperates an RN from a Paramedic, skills wise? Foley insertion for the RN - Intubation for the Paramedic unless a RN is specialized there is no other seperation as we access and use central lines, give IV/IM/SQ/IN and PR meds and can monitor TPN and blood along with hanging more units of blood while in transit. The glaring difference with medications is the Abx and Insulins. Give those to Paramedics and then what is the justification for staffing a ER or other floor with more expensive RN's when the medics can do it at a cost savings.

Dont take this as me questioning a RN's knowledge as that isnt my point. I completed all the same pre-req's and know the work they went through to get into school. But in reality in most ER's you could remove 2/3 of the RN staff and replace them with Medics if they were given Insulin and ABX abilities at a huge savings to hospitals while the left over RN's do anything out of bound like the odd med and *cough* foley insertion.

Essentially you are saying replace all the BSN RNs (which is now over 60% in California) with the 1000 hour trained Paramedic?

What about all of the other skills and knowledge the RN brings to the assessment of a patient. The foley is well within a Paramedic scope of practice but not many have ever cared to utilize it. What about all of the patient educaiton? None of that is covered in Paramedic school. You can just replace education with skills jockeys and expect the same quality of care for the long term. Nothing in EMS training prepares the Paramedic for the admission and plan of care. Ask any Paramedic to assess the decubitus on the butt of a diabetic quad and they will probably tell you to go to hell. I think that was exactly what the state of TX EMS regulator said when they came up with their own community Paramedic legislation. Since EDs are now the holding wards for the ICUs, Paramedics can not assume all the responsibilty of an ICU nurse especially in California.

You need to separate the skills from the knowledge. In California the RN has a very broad scope of practice and any skill a Paramedic can do so can an RN. But, there are not very many medications that a Paramedic can give while the RN can give whatever medication provided they have competency in that area. There is also a big difference between monitor or babysit a med and actually have the protocols and expertise to titrate the meds. The Paramedic is limited by their state's scope of practice while an RN may have a very broad scope of practice and are only limited by the area they work in. RNs can intubate by most states' scope of practice but may not need to.

You are also seeing one tiny part of what a nurse can do in an ED and the hospital you are near might be a small community type.

Take the CCEMTP course and get a little taste of critical care medicine even if you have to take it at AMR NCTI. Take one of the nursing Trauma or Advanced Trauma courses. Find a good neuro hospital and try to take one of their assessment courses for nurses. You might be enlightened to know RNs do alot more than push antibiotics and insert foleys.

Your attitude is exactly what is wrong with the US system for EMS educaiton. You believe the few skills in EMS supercedes all of the education stuff and intubation makes you more valuable than someone who has assessment knowledge in may areas. This replace all the educated personnel who can easily expand their skills with someone who is votech trained sets health care back to 1970 which is where EMS in California has stayed. At some point EMS has got to see the value of education.

All the other professions have moved forward and have received their compensation by reimbursement and wages. EMS still sells "skills" and we can do it cheaper mentality.

Not trying to push RNs but rather trying to show you where statements like yours have kept EMS at barely acceptable education standards and at minimum wage unless you also fight fires.
 
It is common to find medics working triage and advanced or critical care medics working the er orunit floor. Some run codes, suture, cast, or work the flood depending where they are and their function. Some rural ers are staffed by advanced or critical care medics and rns. This is not everywhere up here but there are areas or regions where it is common.

Do your EMTs have a 110 hour certification course and the Paramedics a 600 - 1200 hour course which all can be done in less than a year?

Maybe you should explain the education differences before getting his hopes up.
 
If I find a patient whose BGL is 30 but he's conscious and able to swallow, I'm going to treat him. That's medicine. The same thing applies to assessment of any medical problem or traumatic injur..

How does that differ from what nurses do? (or even PT, OT, SLP, RT, RRT) They have extensive protocols which can be standing orders similar to what Paramedics do. If it is not within their standing orders they call a doctor and the Paramedic calls their med control.

This you might find interesting.

http://www.rn.ca.gov/pdfs/regulations/npr-b-20.pdf

Next time you are in an ED, ask the nurses to show you their "manuals" of standing orders, policies and procedures. Most are on the intranet now but I think you will find the list impressive.

Work on CCTs with RNs and you will get a better idea about what they can do. To gain respect you must first give respect.
 
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Do your EMTs have a 110 hour certification course and the Paramedics a 600 - 1200 hour course which all can be done in less than a year?

Maybe you should explain the education differences before getting his hopes up.

We do not have emts for the most part. Only one province still uses that title. First responder is a couple hundred hours. Medic is 1 to 2 years full time depending on the area. Advanced Medic is another 1 to 2 years after a few years experience and critical care is at least another year with advanced experience.
 
Say what? Ok I am going to get a little defensive about that. An ACNP goes through the most education of any NP besides CRNA. They function at the same level as a PA or resident. So you think a paramedic is comparable to a PA? Maybe in CA

At my hospital the ACNPs place chest tubes, central lines, Art lines, intubate, etc..... Way beyond the knowledge and skill of a paramedic or other nurses.

Ok, I guess I was getting a little (read: a lot) ahead of what I meant to say.

The ACNPs definitely function like a PA or resident (or attending, why not?). I can't say a paramedic is comparable to a PA or ACNP, certainly not exactly, but they can do most of the procedures and many of the assessments that really make a difference for reducing mortality. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the EMT-P in the ED could be a useful physician extender, just like a PA or ACNP is, of course, not necessarily at the same exact level of practice.
 
How does that differ from what nurses do? (or even PT, OT, SLP, RT, RRT) They have extensive protocols which can be standing orders similar to what Paramedics do. If it is not within their standing orders they call a doctor and the Paramedic calls their med control.

Valid point, very much so. But PTs, OTs, and RNs aren't dependent on physicians for licensure and practice in the same exact dependent way that EMS providers are. Namely, as far as I am aware, PT can help somebody to the full extent of his or her knowledge without worrying that he or she can be in trouble for practicing medicine without a license. A paramedic can't.
 
Say what? Ok I am going to get a little defensive about that. An ACNP goes through the most education of any NP besides CRNA. They function at the same level as a PA or resident. So you think a paramedic is comparable to a PA? Maybe in CA

At my hospital the ACNPs place chest tubes, central lines, Art lines, intubate, etc..... Way beyond the knowledge and skill of a paramedic or other nurses.
Playing devil's advocate, there are places where paramedics do or have in the past placed chest tubes and central lines, and paramedics can do art lines (though not usually in the field). And (someone else mentioned it) foley catheters are a paramedic skill.
 
Your putting words into my post that were not there. I never said replace all RN's nor was I specific about BSN. I also plainly stated I was not questioning a RN's knowledge.

I agree an AS in Paramedicine should be minimum. But dont forget that during the RN's infancy they to started with much less then a AA to become an RN.

EMS is now in it's infancy and fighting our way out just like the nurses of old did many years ago. And with that will come higher demands on ourselves to become more proficient providers. It is hard to justify a BS in Paramedicine when the wages will remain meager at best until legislation is changed to increase reimbursments. Which is no different then what nursing went through 50 years ago. Now nursing wages are higher and they can demand a more educated RN, but just think if you knew you were going to make the exact same low wage as a diploma nurse of old even with your BSN, your motivation would not have been there with the rare self motivated exception.

I understand the EMS teaching model, obtained my EMS Educator certification along with being a primary instructor for BLS, ACLS, PALS, PEPP and PHTLS and Lead Instructor for a Paramedic program. Im well aware of the shortcomings of a Paramedic program. And have been studying for my FP-C, which really made me see the difference between the 2. But if you re-read what i actually said, 2/3 of the RN's not all, then yes the medic would easily fit the bill.

I still have yet to scratch the surface of medical knowledge I wish to obtain. But your flawed in thinking a Paramedic is a skills monkey with no core knowledge. Not everyone is a LAFD medic dragging EMS's name through the mud. Some of us actually want to better EMS not let it stagnate.

And Jake not all paramedics went into the program with no prior education like you would lead us to believe by your posting. I like many others did the exact same 2 years of pre-req work as the RN's. As a matter of fact I was actually going RN while doing my pre-reqs and realized it wasnt for me and have remained a Paramedic instead.
 
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Playing devil's advocate, there are places where paramedics do or have in the past placed chest tubes and central lines, and paramedics can do art lines (though not usually in the field). And (someone else mentioned it) foley catheters are a paramedic skill.

Really? I am not saying I do not believe you I just find that shocking. Again I know it sounds like I am hating on paramedics, which is not my intention, but there is no way I would let a medic anywhere near me with a chest tube, central or art line. (unless a CCEMTP with lots of CCT experience) and we talking normal medics or flight medics?

Ok, I guess I was getting a little (read: a lot) ahead of what I meant to say.

The ACNPs definitely function like a PA or resident (or attending, why not?). I can't say a paramedic is comparable to a PA or ACNP, certainly not exactly, but they can do most of the procedures and many of the assessments that really make a difference for reducing mortality. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the EMT-P in the ED could be a useful physician extender, just like a PA or ACNP is, of course, not necessarily at the same exact level of practice.

This is not a personal attack on you but it sounds like you would benefit from some more experience with various healthcare providers. I think you are putting paramedics on a pedestal, so to speak (as I probably do to some extent with RNs)

There may be some small comparssion in relation to trauma care. But how much of ED traffic is actually trauma? Most would be lost with the majority of general medical/surgical patents
 
And Jake not all paramedics went into the program with no prior education like you would lead us to believe by your posting. I like many others did the exact same 2 years of pre-req work as the RN's. As a matter of fact I was actually going RN while doing my pre-reqs and realized it wasnt for me and have remained a Paramedic instead.

Do you think you are in the majority? Do you remember the stats published a couple of years ago by UCSF which showed only about 20% of all EMS instructors has any type of degree?

A degree is not the requirement for a Paramedic cert in the California. Even our neighbor Oregon has many exceptions to their degree requirement.

Do you think the RN and the Paramedic program are the same at the AS level? That means Radiology and Physical Therapy Assistant are also the same as nursing and Paramedic since they require the same prequisites for the AS degree. The core focus is what sets them apart.

Stop with the infancy thing. EMS is almost 50 years old. Other health care professions much younger have gone on to degrees. Many of them came out of the nursing profession and don't think there weren't some turf battles there. Nursing will also say they do what PTs, OTs, RTs, RRTs, and SLPs do but with only an Associates degree. However, when you separate the basic surface skills and the education of assessment, no way does an RN come close to a Masters or Doctorate PT or OT in the rehab setting or now even in the ICU or ER for some assessments.
 
Valid point, very much so. But PTs, OTs, and RNs aren't dependent on physicians for licensure and practice in the same exact dependent way that EMS providers are. Namely, as far as I am aware, PT can help somebody to the full extent of his or her knowledge without worrying that he or she can be in trouble for practicing medicine without a license. A paramedic can't.

A Paramedic in the US is not an independent practitioner. You can not prescribe or bill and you work under a medical director who writes your protocols and should be overseeing your competency to allow you to provide ALS or BLS care. A medical director can also pull the ALS scope of practice from a Paramedic and have them work only at the BLS level regardless of what state license they hold.
 
Playing devil's advocate, there are places where paramedics do or have in the past placed chest tubes and central lines, and paramedics can do art lines (though not usually in the field). And (someone else mentioned it) foley catheters are a paramedic skill.

Besides flight teams, how often do you think these Paramedics get to perform those skills on a weekly basis? Even crics make some very nervous because they don't review often enough.

At one time in the US around 1980 almost every Paramedic in the US had chest tubes, subclavian/femoral central lines and pericardiocentesis in their skillset. Look at the first few editions of Nancy Caroline's book. These were all taught in the course.But it was decided through EBM that is was not a matter of "we could" but rather "should we".

Foleys are probably under utilized by EMS in long transports because of the stigma that it is an icky nursing skill like butt wiping. It is not about the patient in this professsion but how cool you can look. No one wants to brag about their foley skills unless you are a nurse or catheter care tech and are good at it.
 
I for one would love to be able to place foleys as they are often needed, but unfortunately it is not in our scope here.
 
Really? I am not saying I do not believe you I just find that shocking. Again I know it sounds like I am hating on paramedics, which is not my intention, but there is no way I would let a medic anywhere near me with a chest tube, central or art line. (unless a CCEMTP with lots of CCT experience) and we talking normal medics or flight medics?
Usually flight medics when it comes to central lines and chest tubes, but not uniquely. Foley caths are common; art lines are commonly done by students while going through paramedic school, but not usually done in the field. I wouldn't mind getting a chest tube or central/art line by a paramedic, though aside from the first one I don't know that there's a great need for those skills in the field.
 
Besides flight teams, how often do you think these Paramedics get to perform those skills on a weekly basis? Even crics make some very nervous because they don't review often enough.
Chest tubes, central lines and art lines? Not often. Foley caths, depending on where you are, probably.

At one time in the US around 1980 almost every Paramedic in the US had chest tubes, subclavian/femoral central lines and pericardiocentesis in their skillset. Look at the first few editions of Nancy Caroline's book. These were all taught in the course.But it was decided through EBM that is was not a matter of "we could" but rather "should we".
I don't disagree.
 
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