What if a layperson is already working the scene?

[mycrofft]

(Ths is sort of a reverse of a much earlier thread, about being relieved by an incompetent).

You drive up in your ambulance or fire thingee to a rural highway curve and see a two car accident with people sitting on the curb, one lying down. There are a couple road flares up-traffic, and a young woman (or man, maybe one of each) is moving briskly between the victims. The layperson hustles over to you, speaking rapidly gives a thumbnail sketch of each victim, says the cars have been safetied, and says (s)he's going back for his/her backboard.

Seriously, what are you going to do here?

 

[Sapphyre]

Oy vey!

No organized volley response agency here, I'm going to ask for eta of PD (and fire, cause I can't even get out of dodge if fire doesn't say so) then thank the bystander for his/her/they're help and ask them to please stand back.

 

[Sasha]

(Ths is sort of a reverse of a much earlier thread, about being relieved by an incompetent).

You drive up in your ambulance or fire thingee to a rural highway curve and see a two car accident with people sitting on the curb, one lying down. There are a couple road flares up-traffic, and a young woman (or man, maybe one of each) is moving briskly between the victims. The layperson hustles over to you, speaking rapidly gives a thumbnail sketch of each victim, says the cars have been safetied, and says (s)he's going back for his/her backboard.

Seriously, what are you going to do here?

I have a question... why does a layperson have a backboard?

 

[amberdt03]

I have a question... why does a layperson have a backboard?

because they are super awesome and are going to save the world by themselves

 

[JPINFV]

I have a question... why does a layperson have a backboard?

Backboard+ 2 chairs=table. Heck, get a sawzall and widen the handles a bit and you have a built in cup holder. Perfect for those tailgate parties.

 

[bstone]

Are they a trained person? Are they my medical director and his RN wife?

 

[reaper]

Are they a trained person? Are they my medical director and his RN wife?

Does it matter?

I would thank them for the help and tell them that we have it from there. Their response after that determines the next step in line!

 

[bstone]

Does it matter?

I would thank them for the help and tell them that we have it from there. Their response after that determines the next step in line!

Of course it matters. If the person is your med director then you work directly under his supervision and his license. If you piss him off then he can say, "you are no longer licensed to work" and POOF you are immediately required to defer to him.

If my med director was on scene then I'd be very happy to have him run it and get his hands dirty.

 

[reaper]

Maybe the MD, not his wife.

Most good medical directors that come to the scene, will let their personel run the scene and do the treatment.

I would still tell him thank you and we have it from here.

 

[HotelCo]

Are they a trained person? Are they my medical director and his RN wife?

I was always taught that a layperson referred to an individual who had no training or expertise in the area.

Have I been taught wrong?

 

[Shishkabob]

Layperson = those not trained in our profession, therefore they get thanked and let on their way.

 

[amberdt03]

I was always taught that a layperson referred to an individual who had no training or expertise in the area.

Have I been taught wrong?

i think its someone thats has first aid training but really not enough to be of any use.

 

[HotelCo]

I'm pretty sure it means no training. Best that I can find in the dictionary anyway.

 

[VFFforpeople]

If there is an RN at sence, do we go under RN? (and will that apply to a medic as well?). Also, like stated thank them, maybe if low on people for some reason have them hold 4x4s on a wound or something. Other than that nope tell them to back away, and not let them hold the head.

 

[HotelCo]

If there is an RN at sence, do we go under RN? (and will that apply to a medic as well?). Also, like stated thank them, maybe if low on people for some reason have them hold 4x4s on a wound or something. Other than that nope tell them to back away, and not let them hold the head.

No. We do not work under an RN unless they are on duty and assigned to that area.

 

[mycrofft]

Laypeople on scene. McDonalds' flippers.

Are you going to use their vital signs, their "diagnoses", accept their dressing without removing them and inspecting?


OK, now, suppose it was YOU first on scene and then the FD shows up....
So much for carrying stuff to help out professional EMS in a non-disaster situation. You can save lives maybe, but if you're helping, don't be disappointed if all your reports and verbals wind up on the floor.

 

[Shishkabob]

We are under no medical obligation to anyone in the field that is not our medical director or supervisor.

If you're working a pt and a "doctor" says "do this", but they are not your doc, you can say Bye bye to them if you wish.

 

[Epi-do]

i think its someone thats has first aid training but really not enough to be of any use.

No, that is an EMT..... (And, before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I AM JUST KIDDING!!!!)

As for the OP, the bystanders are thanked for their assistance and asked to step back out of the way so we can get to work. The only MD I am required to listen to onscene is my Medical Director. If I choose to do so, I may allow another physician to ride in with me, but only if they can produce their lisence and are willing to sign my paperwork. If they do not wish to do that, then they can step to the side with everyone else.

 

[VentMedic]

Bystanders can provide some important information and should not be dismissed as just someone to get in the way. If they witnessed the MVC, they can tell if another car was involved, the position of the patients when found and their level of consciousness. These may be questions the patient can not answer. Once you have whatever information, thank them sincerely without attitude and they should be referred to the LEOs to see if they need any information from them.

EMS should embrace the fact that the public gets involved at all. Some in EMS constantly complain people don't care or know what to do in an emergency. States have even had to enact laws trying to get people to assist someone in trouble by at least calling 911. They have passed Good Sam laws to encourage the public to offer assistance. Billions of dollars have been spent on classes and public service announcements telling people how to offer assistance if they see an MVC or someone having a heart attack. We have also had hundreds of threads on the EMS forums laughing and criticizing at people who just wanted to do something. The public just can't seem to win when it comes to EMS. They will be criticized for whatever they do.

Even those of us who have been in EMS for many years have not so good stories of being told to go away before any pertinent information could be given to the EMS providers. It is a disservice to the patient to not take a few seconds to listen to someone who was there first. It doesn't mean you are inviting them into the back of your truck. Most doctors and other professionals are probably relieved to not have their responsibility go any further than as a first responder. However, they still should be treated with respect. If a nurse or a doctor did just drive by a scene and not stop, I'm sure some would criticize them in several pages of a thread on some EMS forums.

I guess the AHA should have consulted with EMS before teaching the layperson CPR and AEDs. It seems some in EMS believe they can do it all but don't realize the public is a valuable first link in the chain of survival regardless of the situation.

Personally I would take a layperson with a couple of AHA or ARC classes who took them thinking they might make a difference over an EMT who watched too much crap EMS TV and just wanted to play with the sirens.

 

[amberdt03]

No, that is an EMT..... (And, before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I AM JUST KIDDING!!!!)

texas used to cert something with even less training than an emt called an eca(emergency care attendant) i don't think they do anymore but i could be wrong. thats what ff's used to be certed as back in the day so they wouldn't be required to deal with any medical calls.