What if a layperson is already working the scene?

[Shishkabob]

texas used to cert something with even less training than an emt called an eca(emergency care attendant) i don't think they do anymore but i could be wrong. thats what ff's used to be certed as back in the day so they wouldn't be required to deal with any medical calls.

They still do. Our ECA's are equal in scope to the MFRs, just Texas thought it'd be unique and name them something different.

 

[firecoins]

a layperson generally refers to someone not trained or lesser training than our own. An EMT with no EMS experience might as well be a layperson. My medical director is not a layperson.

Reguardless of the person on scene and their level of training, I will do my own assessment. I will thank this person and take any pertinent information they have. Than I will send them on their way.

 

[VFFforpeople]

No. We do not work under an RN unless they are on duty and assigned to that area.

Ahh, kk thank you for clarifying for me.

 

[VentMedic]

Than I will send them on their way.

Just remember not to chase off bystanders who may be witnesses that can provide useful information to the PD.

Last year a jogger was killed in one of the cities I frequent. He was the victim of a hit and run. Joggers near him got glimpses of the car but when EMS showed up, they told everyone to clear the scene immediately by leaving the area. Thus, the PD was left without any clues as to who hit the man. Fortunately, unlike the EMS providers, the bystanders knew they had important information to give the PD and later contacted them. However, a lot of time was lost when their report could have been made within the first 15 minutes of the hit and run event.

 

[firecoins]

Just remember not to chase off bystanders who may be witnesses that can provide useful information to the PD.
.

Good point. It was merely a poor choice of word on my part.

 

[paccookie]

If there is an RN at sence, do we go under RN? (and will that apply to a medic as well?). Also, like stated thank them, maybe if low on people for some reason have them hold 4x4s on a wound or something. Other than that nope tell them to back away, and not let them hold the head.

Regular RNs are not trained in scene management as EMS people are. We have had a situation where an ER RN thought she was going to be in charge of the scene at an MVC and called the lead medic a few nasty names and told her she was unprofessional. The RN was reported and reprimanded when she went back to work, not only for her unprofessional behavior, but also because she was not trained to be in charge of the scene and should have known better. (The lead medic took the problem to the director, who took it to the RN's supervisor.)

 

[LAS46]

Noun 1. layperson - someone who is not a clergyman or a professional person.

Thanks to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/layperson

Antonyms: layperson
Definition: non-expert
Antonyms: expert, professional

A person who is not a member of a given profession, as law or medicine.

 

[VentMedic]

(The lead medic took the problem to the director, who took it to the RN's supervisor.)

Was she representing a hospital or another EMS agency?

Some state do have MICNs and PHRNs which could be a very different situation. California, where VFFforpeople appears to be from, has MICNs who do Flight, CCT, scence response HEMS and are often liasons for the county EMS systems.

Sometimes off duty EMT(P)s pull up to a scene wearing their department T-shirt or uniform which some wear 24/7 and are assumed to be representing their agency. However, many employers will make it clear that they will NOT cover you for your actions off duty if your are out of line, injured or cause further injury to the patient. Usually an employer could care less about what an off duty RN or EMT(P) is doing unless they are claiming to represent that agency in any way. Then, they become a liability.

 

[paccookie]

Was she representing a hospital or another EMS agency?

Some state do have MICNs and PHRNs which could be a very different situation. California, where VFFforpeople appears to be from, has MICNs who do Flight, CCT, scence response HEMS and are often liasons for the county EMS systems.

Sometimes off duty EMT(P)s pull up to a scene wearing their department T-shirt or uniform which some wear 24/7 and are assumed to be representing their agency. However, many employers will make it clear that they will NOT cover you for your actions off duty if your are out of line, injured or cause further injury to the patient. Usually an employer could care less about what an off duty RN or EMT(P) is doing unless they are claiming to represent that agency in any way. Then, they become a liability.

The medic and the RN are employed by the same hospital. The RN is just a regular ER nurse, not a pre-hospital RN. The medic was doing her job, on the job, just as she would if dispatched to any other call. The nurse happened to roll up on the scene and decided to help. She also decided that she was in charge of the scene and decided to try to boss the medic around. It didn't go over well. My partner and I were the second truck on scene since the first pt was potentially critical and there were two others who refused care (paperwork to do) plus another patient that we transported. It was on the verge of being an ugly scene. I've been on MVC scenes where nurses stopped to first respond and you couldn't have asked for better help. This particular call was more like a battle of egos.

 

[usafmedic45]

She also decided that she was in charge of the scene and decided to try to boss the medic around

I very politely remind them we are on a good working basis with the local police/sheriff and it's a felony to interfere with the duties of an EMS provider in our state. If that doesn't work, I remind them that they can't practice nursing if they are a convicted felon. If that doesn't work, they find themselves in a squad car. This has happened twice in roughly 10 years. One of the cases actually went to court and the nurse lost her license. The other was released back to continue on her way after we left the scene. She complained to our medical director about how WE treated HER with no respect because she was a "superior practitioner". Our MD told her- in my presence- and I quote, "Lady, you're lucky I don't report you to the nursing board for unprofessional conduct. The day you are a truly superior provider in your ability to deliver prehospital care to competent EMS personnel as I have under my authority, hell will freeze over. Now shut up and get out of my office."

Even if it's not per se illegal to interfere with EMS where you are, having a cop step in usually makes an arrogant nurse/off duty EMS provider's ego shrink faster than external genitalia in a male hypothermia victim. No one with supratentorial function will backtalk someone with a tazer, pepper spray, an ASP baton and a pistol.

I've been on MVC scenes where nurses stopped to first respond and you couldn't have asked for better help

This would be the norm in most areas....I've only had a handful cause problems.

 

[firecoins]

Only once did I have an RN on scene on an MVA. She was neither helpful nor harmful.

I don't use MVC. Personal choice.