What do you think of this?

[mycrofft]

California is considering under common law a requirement to have AED's as part of common law requirement to provide first aid for "invitees" (in this case, shoppers at Target).

 

[VFlutter]

I think there should be incentives for companies to have AEDs in their stores but I do not see any reason to require them. Since when do private companies have an obligation to provide medical equipment for emergencies to their customers? The family sueing is totally asinine in my opinion.

Edit: The rationale from the court

"Because of the reasonable foreseeability that a Pico Rivera Target customer could suffer sudden cardiac arrest, the insignificant burden of acquiring an AED and training employees on how to use the simple device, and the virtual certainty of death if an AED is not used within minutes of the onset of sudden cardiac arrest, the Pico Rivera Target had a duty to have available an AED in its store,"

Do you guys agree with that?

 

[EpiEMS]

I see no difference between this proposal and NYS law that requires CPR masks at restaurants (and some other public places). (viz.: http://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/cpr/cpr_regulations.htm)

Plus, an AED is quite a cost effective intervention. There's lots of good literature out there. A quick PubMed search gave several results:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1494915/ found that the cost of an AED in a large shopping mall is below $100,000/QALY, and it's pretty widely accepted that measures below $100,000/QALY are cost-effective (if I'm remembering my health econ course correctly).

Another study found a mean cost of $46,000 per QALY for public access defibrillation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19321228

Also, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3372977/ showed plenty of legal precedent for requiring AEDs in some locations.

From a cost standpoint, we have to find what a quality adjusted life year is worth. If it's $X, then anything costing Y≤X is appropriate.

 

[mycrofft]

JUst declare bankruptcy then reopen elsewhere with the license under your brother or wife's name.

 

[DrParasite]

oh absolutely not.

this has bad idea written all over it.

esp if the requirement is just to have an AED. are staff required to use it? does that mean every staff member needs to be trained in CPR, and how to use the AED, and they will probably have to designate a CPR response team, who in all likelyhood will never be needed. They will also have to make sure the AED has the latest programming, and replace the pads when they expire. and who is going to pay for this mandate? paying for the AED itself, the CPR training classes, the staff's hourly wage during class, the costs do build up.

should it apply to all commercial establishments? target is pretty big, should supermarkets be required as well? what about minimarkets? what about comic book stores? and if the company is barely breaking even, and they have an option of updating the AED or payroll, and they chose payroll, can they be liable for not having the latest programming?

Don't get me wrong, I am totally in favor of AEDs being in every cop car, fire truck and ambulance, and whomever gets their first applies the AED and attempts a shock. I am totally in favor of every airport terminal, mall, transportation hub, senior center and other large gathering area purchasing them and training their security staff in how it is to be used.

But I can't agree with mandating AEDs for every commercial establishment, nor do I think a commercial establishment should be held liable for not having one. it's another unfunded mandate.

I see no difference between this proposal and NYS law that requires CPR masks at restaurants (and some other public places). (viz.: http://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/cpr/cpr_regulations.htm)

a CPR mask costs $12, and a face shield is $5... ans AED is $1,000+. a CPR mask has no maintenance requirements, not so for an AED.

Plus the law requires the equipment to be on premises, but it doesn't require the staff to use it in the even of a sudden cardiac arrest. and it doesn't even apply to all commercial places. Sorry, good in theory, not as good in practice.

 

[JPINFV]

I'd rather require big box stores to have one of those car jumper boxes for dead batteries. Those might actually get used from time to time.

 

[bigbaldguy]

Wait huge multimillion dollar corps like target and Walmart may have to start spending money on AEDs, oh no what about the cost ? Yeah I'm ok with that. Early defibrillation is key to good outcomes in cardiac arrest. This target looks like its probably in a community that is largely elderly folks. Shaving 2 or 3 minutes can mean the difference between grandpa eating with a fork or a tube for the next 15 years.

Who's going to be trained to use it? Have you seen these new AEDs they practically crawl off the wall and attach themselves. They even have little video screens now with a woman that talks you through everything and some even respond to voice prompts. Plus a good chunk of the population has at least enough knowledge of CPR/AEDs to figure it out.

Every target in Texas already has AEDs FYI.

 

[bigbaldguy]

I'd rather require big box stores to have one of those car jumper boxes for dead batteries. Those might actually get used from time to time.

They do, and they do

 

[EpiEMS]

Wait huge multimillion dollar corps like target and Walmart may have to start spending money on AEDs, oh no what about the cost ? Yeah I'm ok with that.

I can't help but think that the costs will get passed on to the customers, anyway. That's sort of the nature of how they do financial planning. Plus, saving lives (or even trying to) is awesome PR

 

[bigbaldguy]

I can't help but think that the costs will get passed on to the customers, anyway. That's sort of the nature of how they do financial planning. Plus, saving lives (or even trying to) is awesome PR

Yup, plus they'll probably get some kind of special rating from the gov for having em which will snag em more money.

I look at it this way. AEDs in public places are primarily paid for by the public one way or another, either taxes or increased costs. Even at 1k a peice if the use of one prevents the long term disability of one person per 1000 AEDs we probably still come out ahead because chances are that one persons health care costs will more than likely also be paid for by us by, yup you guessed it taxes or increased costs. Plus more demand for AEDs means more development and research going into AEDs which means AEDs will be come cheaper and smaller and eventually you know what that means...






AEDs with belt clips hell yeah the ultimate whacker belt ornament!!!! Boo yah.

 

[JPINFV]

AEDs with belt clips hell yeah the ultimate whacker belt ornament!!!! Boo yah.

I always make sure to sure to get a fetal doppler with a belt clip because... F Yea!

 

[mycrofft]

I can't help but think that the costs will get passed on to the customers, anyway. That's sort of the nature of how they do financial planning. Plus, saving lives (or even trying to) is awesome PR

1. cost of one AED= twenty average minutes at a Target = they get a tax credit for 1.3 million dollars annually per store.

2. "Hey, come on in to Walmart if you've been feeling a little tired and getting tingling in your left arm, occasional chest pain on exertion, or feelings of impending doom with a tight chest".:lol:

 

[bigbaldguy]

1. cost of one AED= twenty average minutes at a Target = they get a tax credit for 1.3 million dollars annually per store.

2. "Hey, come on in to Walmart if you've been feeling a little tired and getting tingling in your left arm, occasional chest pain on exertion, or feelings of impending doom with a tight chest".:lol:

Actually didn't Walmart put full service clinics in some of their stores? Or did that fall through. I know I saw signs up at one saying they were coming soon but that's been a few years ago.

 

[JPINFV]

I think they've got "minute clinics" in some states staffed by mid-levels. Around So. Cal. it seems like they all have optometrists running an eye clinic and glasses store.

 

[mycrofft]

RiteAid and local HMO/Hospital group have them some locations. Was in all stores initially, but proved to be a waste.