Unions????

[8jimi8]

Texas being a right to work state, it is highly unlikely there is a nurses union that has that kind of stroke at any facility (with the possible exception of federal facilities).

What nurses do have, is a strong regulatory body (Texas BON) whom with legaslative approval have set minimum standards about who can perform certain nursing care in the acute and long-term care settings, increasing demand and thereby negotiating power of the profession as a whole. In addition minimum standards are set about who they will license to perform that care. Take note that the Board of Nursing is made up of registered nurses interested in the growth of the nursing profession.

Paramedics? We can't even agree that all patients deserve a Paramedic level assesment, or the level of education needed to become a Paramedic. So instead, we get a government beauracracy that has no interest in our growth as a profession, only protecting the communinty from the hodgepodge of providers that are on the street.

completely and exactly wrong. The board of nursing is a regulatory body whose sole function and role is to enforce the nursing practice act and protect the public FROM nurses. And it is not made up entirely of nursing professionals. Sorry, no offense intended; however the above post is complete misinformation.

 

[firetender]

United we stand; Divided we fall

In 1985, in Central California there was a Professional Association of Emergency Medical Care workers (I am not naming it in particular because I'm not sure how this exists today, if at all). It was an outgrowth of three years of struggle between employee associations and the management of their employer, a (now defunct) private ambulance firm. The Association did an unprecedented thing at the time; it AFFILIATED with an AFL-CIO Union.

(ASIDE: To be honest, as one of the organizers through three different mutations of the associations, the most frustrating part was realizing then [as now IMHO] most medics DO NOT see themselves as career professionals. They recognize that at any moment, they could be out of there! Longevity in the field is a distant concept.

Such things are not spoken about too much, but after 12 years of observation, I started to GET that the average medic has a hard time picturing him/herself still in the profession in 10 years; thus, in terms of investment, it's almost an unheard of concept.!)

Since I crafted the agreement, let me share a little background. I grew up in N.Y. and it was common knowledge "Unions ruined everything!" They expanded the cost of living ten-fold, they were corrupt thieves, yadda yadda yadda. But after three years of reneged contracts, the Association didn't have the clout to make anything stick with the company. So I went along with us seeking out representation.

Now in 1984 I don't think there were any EMS Unions west of the Rockies. We had no guides to follow. The issue of striking came up. At that time the Union wasn't representing any health care workers that were involved in essential (life and death) services. We needed to assure that we wouldn't get sucked in to something like, as was the practice, if the Occupational Therapists struck and get nowhere, to put on the squeeze, in the next wave, the Nurse's Aide's would walk off their jobs.

So I wrote up an Affiliation Agreement (amended in parts but finally approved mostly intact) that assured the Association was autonomous in all activities dealing with promoting paramedic services, raising money, expanding our scope and delivering quality health care to the populace in our areas. That would include a separation of us from other Union entities in the event of a strike. A "No Strike clause was essential to fulfill our duty to our public.

In essence, we paid dues to the Union to represent us in annual negotiations with the company for pay and benefits. They would provide us professional representation and, if necessary, legal representation in the event of reneged contracts.

At the time, Unions were losing ground and they were stretching their standard parameters to attract new members. As Vene said, the Air Traffic Controllers struck, and Reagan said screw the Unions and fired 'em all! So we did a first.

But you know what? Not unsurprisingly, I understand that after a couple of years, the Association lost sight of the importance of that separation! In essence, the Association seemed to have lost steam for anything having to do with actually FURTHERING the profession, which was an important part of its initial design. Once they got their pay and bennies, apathy trumped!

I put in on this thread because Union or not, medics are going to have to become willing to expand themselves so they can expand their profession.

They have to take steps to help each other prevent burnout, increase their ability to be responsive to the people who they REALLY serve; (unfortunately, not the TRULY sick and injured!) and exert a common voice of protest against exploitation and sub-standard care -- no matter who delivers it.

Underneath it all, they need to define their own curricula from basic EMT (Associates) through MICP (Bachelors), to Trauma Specialist (whatever - Master's). Get the picture?

Nurses defined their own profession, set their own standards (BOTH through education!), adapted what they became from what they REALLY did and exhibited a unified voice that said "We are worth something!" But they were not casual about it. A core group of them relentlessly kept the momentum going.

In order for a union to work, there must be unity in the workers.

 

[emt seeking first job]

I think physicians are too smart to be in a union

in NYC hospitals they have unions

 

[emt seeking first job]

well heres my question for everyone. would you actually stop doing your job during a strike? is that fair to the patients? the ones who really need us anyway.... i think thats why the higher up have us by the balls. but thats just my humble opinion

In New York, Police and Fire have unions but no ability to strike.

Unions does not always equal ability to strike.

 

[Veneficus]

in NYC hospitals they have unions

Is that a labor union or a professional association?

If it is a union can you please give a link, I would like to see it. (I want the details)

 

[emt seeking first job]

Is that a labor union or a professional association?

If it is a union can you please give a link, I would like to see it. (I want the details)

http://www.seiu.org/2010/06/doctors-at-hhcs-coney-island-hospital-join-doctors-council-seiu.php

 

[emt seeking first job]

Is that a labor union or a professional association?

If it is a union can you please give a link, I would like to see it. (I want the details)

And SUNY: State University of New York, of which has four campuses with public hospitals, Physicians are under UUP.

http://www.uupinfo.org/membership/welcome.html

 

[rescue99]

It's my personal policy not to hire anyone that is part of a union. Being how many EMT's are graduating every month, that is not a problem. So basically it's unlikely that union will make a difference for you.

"Being how" employees can always sign that little card, what is your plan for ensuring this pre-employment condition? What legal way would you keep employees from orgainzing? Unless the business has about 8.7 mil to spend on zealots, mooks and lawyers, once employees sign and vote, you will not be getting rid of the union. Oh, and the bullying it takes to keep people from voting in a union is about another 2 mil. Good luck with that......

IMHO; the best and most effective way to reasonably ensure a non-union relationship while keeping good employees is to maintain a positive work envrironment and decent wages. Having a stinky attitude sure won't bring good people to your door. Bottom of the barrell workers is about what you can expect. That will of course, equate to bottom of the barrell profits, more lawsuits and endless headaches.

 

[emt seeking first job]

Unions are not always "bad."

I can not find a link for it.

Regarding auto workers unions...

However, I remember reading that any act of sabatoge, even if the person responsible is not established, are paid for out of the salaries of everyone at the plant.

Because of this, there is peer pressure not to mess with anything and that enabled GM to scale back their internal security force.

I read that in a newspaper about 20 years ago when the GM Plant (now closed) in westchester had sabatoge

 

[emt seeking first job]

I will state my position on Unions:

Abuses can occur on both sides, employer and employee.

I think the best situation is unionized workers as it creates a system of checks and balances against abuses by an employer.

It also enables things like on duty drug test co-operation of granted in exchange for $ or benefits.

 

[usalsfyre]

completely and exactly wrong. The board of nursing is a regulatory body whose sole function and role is to enforce the nursing practice act and protect the public FROM nurses. And it is not made up entirely of nursing professionals. Sorry, no offense intended; however the above post is complete misinformation.

Ok, I agree in technicality my post was wrong. The point I was trying to get across was that RNs, with nurse practice acts ect, have made it impossible to opperate in the acute care setting without a certain level of nursing present, thereby vastly increasing their bargining power.

In the prehospital realm, it's possible to get a waiver from the State of Texas to opperate an ambulance with two ECAs. So where is our bargining power...

 

[8jimi8]

Like i said, no offense intended. I just wanted to make sure we are remaining factual. I don't have any experience with unions, so I am definitely interested in the outcome of this thread.


And it is often mistaken by new nurses with the thought that "the BON is your friend." When in fact the BON is absolutely NOT the friend of a nurse.

 

[looker]

"Being how" employees can always sign that little card, what is your plan for ensuring this pre-employment condition? What legal way would you keep employees from orgainzing? Unless the business has about 8.7 mil to spend on zealots, mooks and lawyers, once employees sign and vote, you will not be getting rid of the union. Oh, and the bullying it takes to keep people from voting in a union is about another 2 mil. Good luck with that......

IMHO; the best and most effective way to reasonably ensure a non-union relationship while keeping good employees is to maintain a positive work envrironment and decent wages. Having a stinky attitude sure won't bring good people to your door. Bottom of the barrell workers is about what you can expect. That will of course, equate to bottom of the barrell profits, more lawsuits and endless headaches.

Simple, i will fire them. California is at will state. I can fire you as long as i am not doing it because of religion, sexual or age reasons.

 

[JPINFV]

Like i said, no offense intended. I just wanted to make sure we are remaining factual. I don't have any experience with unions, so I am definitely interested in the outcome of this thread.


And it is often mistaken by new nurses with the thought that "the BON is your friend." When in fact the BON is absolutely NOT the friend of a nurse.

I'd argue that a Board of ____ is a friend of the profession, not a friend of any individual as sometimes it's the Board's job to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[silver]

Health services such as EMS cannot participate in a work stoppage anywhere as far as I know.

Minnesota Nurses had a 1 day strike this past June. This was luckily "planned" and temp nurses were hired, but still they had a strike.

I think unions have good things and bad things. In this day and age much of it is bad. From my view unions help those union reps/leaders the most. Other then that the fees are expensive and the overall benefits/pensions are not well managed. I know a fairly large union mentioned so far has lost a significant amount of their pension in the economy from mismanagement. Like they some people might not be able to retire soon.

 

[8jimi8]

I'd argue that a Board of ____ is a friend of the profession, not a friend of any individual as sometimes it's the Board's job to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I'm more than willing to keep discussing the Bon on another thread, but just to say. The amount of corruption and politics involved leads me to completely disagree with your statement.

 

[Veneficus]

http://www.seiu.org/2010/06/doctors-at-hhcs-coney-island-hospital-join-doctors-council-seiu.php

It says those are only doctors at teaching hospital, being represented as teachers, not as practicing physicians.

It also doesn't say anything about covering physicians in non teaching capacities or private hospitals.

 

[rescue99]

Simple, i will fire them. California is at will state. I can fire you as long as i am not doing it because of religion, sexual or age reasons.

What are you going to fire someone for, organizing, seeking information, for signing a card? Those are rights protected by law. In approximately 22 states, right to work laws allows any person to resign or refuse to join a union, not pay dues or fees yet still be represented in bargaining for wages, bennies and such. There are a few professions that still have to pay dues, such as railroads or airlines for example. Right to work does not mean a bargaining unit cannot be present, formed or voted in.

As long as a supporter/organizer is openly participating, firing him/her for union activity is protected by federal labor laws. The legal costs can skyrocket should unfair labor charges be filed. It's the folks who try to do it all hush-hush or those who act out in hostility during thier efforts that find themselves on the wrong end of right! Regardless of which side wins in the end, it gets mighty costly for employers. People don't quite understand that when it comes to labor organizing, being the squeaky wheel may be thier only protection.

 

[JPINFV]

As long as a supporter/organizer is openly participating, firing him/her for union activity is protected by federal labor laws.

With my observation of the EMS workforce, finding cause for termination isn't necessarily a difficult thing to do. "Your honor, I did not fire Mr. Smith for wanting to join the union. I fired him for regularly failing to complete truck checkout sheets, having an unprofessional attitude, and regularly not providing care directly from the cookbook. Here's his disciplinary record. The defense rests."

 

[looker]

What are you going to fire someone for, organizing, seeking information, for signing a card? Those are rights protected by law. In approximately 22 states, right to work laws allows any person to resign or refuse to join a union, not pay dues or fees yet still be represented in bargaining for wages, bennies and such. There are a few professions that still have to pay dues, such as railroads or airlines for example. Right to work does not mean a bargaining unit cannot be present, formed or voted in.

As long as a supporter/organizer is openly participating, firing him/her for union activity is protected by federal labor laws. The legal costs can skyrocket should unfair labor charges be filed. It's the folks who try to do it all hush-hush or those who act out in hostility during thier efforts that find themselves on the wrong end of right! Regardless of which side wins in the end, it gets mighty costly for employers. People don't quite understand that when it comes to labor organizing, being the squeaky wheel may be thier only protection.

In California i can fire you because I didn't like the color of the shoes that you had that day. California is at will, so it means I can fire you if i want to and there is basically nothing you can do about it.