Ticketed for rolling through a Stop Sign

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lamont317

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Slowwwww Down! I did not hurt anyone nor was there a pedestiran or vehicle near this intersection. It all started when we recieved a call for pedestrian versus train. Thats right....Person walking had been struck by a train!

It took me like 2 seconds to get out of the house and in my vehicle. I turned on my Blue light (which I know is not a free pass) And proceeded 1 1/2 blocks to the first stop sign away from my house enroute to the garage, rolled through it and within 1 block had crossed a set of tracks and came to the 2nd stop sign, which I rolled through also.

That was the stop sign that I was ticketed for running. I did see the On-Duty police officer running to his car from the barber shop (thats right) and looking the other direction noted no traffic either in vehicle or on foot. After taking my foot off of the brake pedal that was slowing me torwards a stop if there had been traffic, I went through the sign at about 10-15 MPH.

About 24 hours later a different officer that was off duty gave me the citation stating that he was in a fuel station adjacent to the stop sign when he saw the infraction.

I do not drive excessivley fast to the garage partly because it is only 6 blocks from home and I drive a vehicle that literally will not go that fast.

We have spoke with the Police Chief and he states that the PD allows us within reason "room to respond" to our calls. I just can not figure out where this room is. In one breath he says it is OK and in the next his Officers are issuing citations.

I know the golden rule is follow all traffic laws, but come on, a person was just hit by a train!

I am not really looking for responses to this, just really need to vent right now! :wacko:
 
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I'd hope that this would be one of those things that could be worked out. I can justify rolling through some stop signs running RLS, but I think one of our community members was sued and lost for an accident they caused while running through one.
 
Sorry my friend, but you are wrong.

I do not even roll through stop signs in an ambulance. It is unneccesary and uncalled for. The nature of the call is not relevant to your infraction.

You violated the law period, end of story.

Also, bare in mind that when you respond, you just became an employee of the city or town or whomever you are responding for. Even if you do not get paid a single dime, they are liable for your actions as they dispatched you to this call.

How would you feel if you rolled through a stop sign and hit a child or took out another vehicle? What if you got hit and then became injured? Now you just took another unit or personel away from the original call.

For the record, I do not consider 10-15 mph a "roll through"...that speed is a bit excessive to be considered a roll. That is just an outright running of a stop sign.

Pay your fine, learn your lesson and set/follow better examples in the future.

And if you don't want responses, don't post in a public forum...lol.
 
my thoughts....

lamont317 said:
Slowwwww Down! I did not hurt anyone nor was there a pedestiran or vehicle near this intersection. It all started when we recieved a call for pedestrian versus train. Thats right....Person walking had been struck by a train!

It took me like 2 seconds to get out of the house and in my vehicle. I turned on my Blue light (which I know is not a free pass) And proceeded 1 1/2 blocks to the first stop sign away from my house enroute to the garage, rolled through it and within 1 block had crossed a set of tracks and came to the 2nd stop sign, which I rolled through also.

That was the stop sign that I was ticketed for running. I did see the On-Duty police officer running to his car from the barber shop (thats right) and looking the other direction noted no traffic either in vehicle or on foot. After taking my foot off of the brake pedal that was slowing me torwards a stop if there had been traffic, I went through the sign at about 10-15 MPH.

About 24 hours later a different officer that was off duty gave me the citation stating that he was in a fuel station adjacent to the stop sign when he saw the infraction.

I do not drive excessivley fast to the garage partly because it is only 6 blocks from home and I drive a vehicle that literally will not go that fast.

We have spoke with the Police Chief and he states that the PD allows us within reason "room to respond" to our calls. I just can not figure out where this room is. In one breath he says it is OK and in the next his Officers are issuing citations.

I know the golden rule is follow all traffic laws, but come on, a person was just hit by a train!

I am not really looking for responses to this, just really need to vent right now! :wacko:
Click to expand...



i have to say that I don't agree with the citation and i hope this will be worked out for you. I don't know the laws in your state but in KY if I am correct, the law states due regard. If you are approaching an intersection in your personal vehicle and you have visually cleared the interesection (many times) a 10-15 mph roll through would be permissible. I would feel that would be considered due regard for safety. How many times have the police officer who ticketed you rolled through a stop sign/traffic light while responding to a domestic violence call? Although there are many, many factors that would be in the police officers favor for justifying the action, (marked unit, properly placed and sufficient lighting, siren etc) there are still a life in signifigant danger in both situations.

I don't know just my .02.
 
I'm a bit confused by your response akflightmedic. You're saying you come to a complete legal stop at every stop sign while running RLS?
 
just an aside here,
most insurance companies, unless prior arrangements are made, do not cover incidents involving personal vehicle responses

other than that,
i think i've seen cops violate the most traffic laws while on patrol, curiously noboby seems to want to teach them a lesson...

~S~
 
Yes I stop at stop signs. I also stop at red lights and then proceed lane by lane. I also go home alive and uninjured with a clear conscience. I also do not harm anyone else who may be on the road. Its a great feeling!

Yes, you may have proceeded with due regard for twenty years, but all it takes is that one time, you think you cleared a stop sign and "roll through" at 10-15 mph, which I contend is excessive speed for this manuever.

Shifting the blame and saying well the cops dont do it or no one teaches them a lesson is a moot point.

This issue arose from a person responding in their personal vehicle with at best a blue light on the dash. I am not saying being in amarked vehicle with a zillion lights makes it right either, but he was in his personal vehicle.

Call your insurance company and ask them what would be the consequences of an accident should something occur while responding in a POV. Also see how interested they become to know that you are already doing this without them being aware.

The rule I live by and teach to all my students is "It is not MY emergency".
By this I mean, you are no good to yourself or your family if you get injured or killed responding to someone else's emergency. Yes I will move expeditously and with purpose but I will never act without thinking the action through and then proceeding methodically.
 
Ditto AK. I can't believe anyone would not stop at intersections or traffic lights, this would be in comparison of passing on the right. Busting through lights and intersections is asking for another MVA, and displays poor judgement and safety to others, even at 10 mph.

In my state and others are now adopting the ruling that the emergency vehicle should be operated in a safe operating manner, in due regards to life, and property. Therefore, technically it is the EVO fault if there is an accident. As well many states are abolishing running with emergency identification on p.o.v.'s

R/r 911
 
you were wrong. very wrong. first, EVOC requires a full and complete stop at all red lights and signs. multi lane intersections are to be cleared lane by lane. second, 10-15mph is not a roll. thats(roughly) half the speed limit(depending on excact local laws). in ma, the fundamental speed law says the spped limit for all roads is 30 mph unless otherwise posted.

if i was the officer i would have written you up too. if i was your chief or supervisor, i would immedialtey revoke your light permit, since you obvioulsy dont have the responsibility to handle it. i say that not because you got the ticket, but because you both got the ticket and dont think you did anything wrong.

the first time you get into an accident while responding to a call, you will realize that the rules are there for a reason. i have been there. it changed my perspective.....
 
Two pieces here........... but first...........

I am glad you posted this. What a great topic.

1) Even in a patrol car I would stop at a red light while running Code 3. The physical dangers and the legal ramifications greatly outwiegh the couple of seconds I would save by not coming to a complete stop.

2) I always made a joke about writing stop sign violation tickets when the person would say "I slowed down"............ (When the person was gone) I would make a comment about whacking them in the head with a baton and asking ..... Do you want me to slow down or STOP?

Remember the high liabilty of ambulance crashes.

Like I said......... great post. People can learn from this. :)
 
Yesterday when I was driving I thought of this thread. I can not imagine that each EMT while responding RLS comes to the same complete stop that one would do without RLS.

I stop, but I do not wait for all wheels to come to a complete and full stop before proceeding. I haven't driven with anyone that does.
 
MMiz said:
Yesterday when I was driving I thought of this thread. I can not imagine that each EMT while responding RLS comes to the same complete stop that one would do without RLS.

I stop, but I do not wait for all wheels to come to a complete and full stop before proceeding. I haven't driven with anyone that does.
Click to expand...

Hiya Matt :)

I can tell you it is in some policies in places I have worked that the operator of an emergency vehicle stops, then proceeds with caution at every stop sign and red light.

The reason for that is when the operator gets into an accident while driving Code 3, the agency can "distance" themself.
 
I understand everyones opinion and am I in now way offended by anyone else's posts.

I completly understand that I am only saving at the most 10 seconds for not stopping at the intersection.

I feel as if I should explain the intersection, in my defense. This intersection is a 3-way or T intersection with no obstructions. I could see very clearly the oncoming traffic as well as the traffic to the right which actually T's into this street. There was absolutely no traffic in sight and no pedestrians anywhere near this intersection. The only pedestrian insight was the on-duty PO getting into his squad to respond to this call, and he was 30-40 yards away from the intersection with his car door handle in his hand. He was not even the officer issuing the citation!

In my defense, the Police Chief of our town of 3000 people, spoke with our entire department not even 3 months ago and this is his almost exact quote.....I understand that certain situations require immediate attention by certified medical personell. We are not here to issue citations to those that are volunteering thier time for this community. If you don't get reckless we will look the other way. If you are traveling 10-15 MPH over the speed limit, or you roll through a stop sign (we have no stop lights) and you do this in a safe manner I have no problem with it.

With that said, I can not figure out where the double standard is?????????? On one hand it is OK and on the other it is not. Where is that line?

I do not believe what I did was wrong, I took every precaution, other than stopping, to clear that intersection. I was 100% sure that my actions at that time would put no other person or even a pet in danger.

I do take offense in one or two of the comments for this reason. In order for those comments to be correct in nature, you would have had to deduce that I am stupid or ignorant. I did not graduate in the top 10% of class for being stupid. I have been in this field for 2 years now and trust me when I say I know what happens in an accident. If for any reason I thought that I might be causing a disruption in traffic that may lead to a 10-50 then by all means I would have stopped. In no way was I recklessly driving.


I do regard the Publics safety in the highest of regards! I have been driving both personally and proffesionally for 18 years now without a single 10-50, trust me, I do not want there to be a first.

I appreciate all comments good or bad. I thought that this would be an excellent topic for discussion, and obviously, so do others!

Thanks!
 
I have seen Police Officers turn on their lights at a stop light to get through the intersection then turn them off and go meet another Officer for lunch. Does this mean I will do the same in an Ambulance or my POV?...No.

I have seen in the paper where an Officer is charged with hitting their wife. Does this mean I will do it?...No.

I have seen first hand what will happen to a responder that does not have "due-reguard" for themselves or the public. So for goodness sake. No matter what time of day or your location. Slow down. As one person already said here "It is not your emergency" so do not make it your emergency.

I have had to call the parents of a fellow responder to tell them that their son was in the Hospital and getting ready to be flown out to a Level I trauma center and it did not look good. I would hate to read here that someone on this site had the same fate.
 
I understand and agree with almost everything everyone is saying here. What I'm a bit confused about is everyone coming to an absolutely complete stop.

Coming to a complete stop with PD behind me is a bit different than coming to a complete stop if I'm driving without them watching. I come to a complete stop, but I surely don't wait a few seconds to make sure that all my wheels have come to an absolute stop before proceeding. The same goes for when I'm driving an ambulance. I absolutely come to a stop, but I'm not sure it's the perfect stop that would keep me from getting a ticket. I'm not talking about a 10 MPH stop, or even a 5 MPH stop. I'm talking about not doing the perfect stop where I ensure my vehicle is absolutely stopped without any momentum to pull me forward. I just can't imagine doing that in an ambulance.
 
to me, complete stop means complete stop. no forward motion. stationary. my accident taught me a lot, even though i wast at fault and it didnt have anything to do with this topis. it was a failure to yield situation. but the months of paperwork, the court appearence, the hell i went through afetr that gave me a new found respect for the rules and regulations of EVO.

this topic also came into play for me this week. one of my crews, allegedly, ran a red light, and was involved in an mva. there was no significant injury this time, but what about next time. this guy might lose his job over it. i bet he wished he stopped.....
 
The way i see it, the number one thing we were always taught in school was crew safety. Number one responsibility is to ourselves, no matter what the call, or who the patient. I'm not sayign I always drive completely within the letter of the law all the time on the job...I'm sayign i should. And should I get into an accident or written up or anything of the sort, it will be my own fault. And the same goes for everyone. We have a huge priviledge and responsibility when we are in our vehicles, Be it work or personal vehicle with a blue light. We need to take it seriuosly, and keep in mind that if we get hurt or if we hurt anyone else, it solves nothign and only makes things worse.
 
I found this on the net and just thought that it is fitting to this topic..............


The First Law of Ambulance Operation:
No matter how fast you drive the Ambulance when responding to a call, it will never be fast enough, until you pass a Police Cruiser, at which point it will be entirely too fast. Unless you are responding to an "Officer Down" call then it is physically impossible to be traveling fast enough!



Now on a serious note, I appreciate all the explanations and comments that this post has delivered. I will not be running any stop signs in the future. Reason being that I am here to protect the public, not argue laws. Rules are rules,,,,,,just don't say one thing and then turn around and do another is my point. This matter has turned away from morality to political in a matter of hours!
 
Just another rather quick clarification, I understand how dangerous this could have been considering even the remote chance that anyone or thing could have come into my projected path, but at 10-15 MPH, c'mon, my grandfather's reaction time is a whole faster than that.
 
ok, you didn't stop, only rolled through at 10-15 mph, not bad. Now to put it into perspective, what if some other chucklehead ran the stop sign going significantly faster across your path? Your "reaction time" will be mitigated by the amazing volume of combed cotton and seat cushion becoming one with your colon. Just stop. It's not your emergency, why cause it to become yours? Due regard is a phrase that gets tossed around, but when you go to court lawyers will jump all over it. You have seen first hand the results of such stupidity and should know better.

Next time, just stop. Go to court, talk to the officer, be contrite, and it all may just go away. Be stupid and offer one of those pithy comments about saying one thing and doing another, guaranteed you walk to your next call.

Believe me, I stopped for real, and like you had counted on my "reaction time" when we were broadsided at seventy in an intersection. I remember hitting my head, my partner screaming and the truck spinning, then a big gap, then waking up and calling for help, then a bigger gap, c-collar, spineboard by my co-workers, big gap, ED, big gap, my Mom and Dad coming into the trauma room to see me. Not a good night. My "reaction time" allowed me just enough time to register the scream of my partner before we were hit. It takes almost a second to register an unexpected stimulus, and longer to react to it. In those two seconds the truck that hit us had covered over 150 feet. So please stop. You're young, try to live long enough to realize how foolish you were as a young man.
 
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