Ticketed for rolling through a Stop Sign

[VinBin]

other than that,
i think i've seen cops violate the most traffic laws while on patrol, curiously noboby seems to want to teach them a lesson...

~S~

amen to that...

I have NO problem with police writing tickets/enforcing rules that they expect most to abide by (including themselves). But for chickens*** tickets like "rolling" through a sign (I am not referring to going through at 10 or 15mph) give me a break...

I wish police would enfore the laws with CONTEXT taken into consideration...

 

[KEVD18]

still doesnt get it.......

 

[Mercy4Angels]

if your running lights and sirens here you are pardoned "within reason" from all traffic laws. please stress within reason. when running a blue light you must obey all traffic laws.

 

[VinBin]

still doesnt get it.......

I wasn't refering really to the scenario at hand, I was making a general statement of taking context into consideration when writing a ticket...

 

[Medic1108]

You were in the wrong. Like stated above, EVOC requires a full stop at red lights and stop signs.

 

[KEVD18]

I wasn't refering really to the scenario at hand, I was making a general statement of taking context into consideration when writing a ticket...

not you, the original poster. the feeling im getting is that he still doesnt respect the fact that he was wrong. still thinks its ok to "roll through" a sign etc.

"I do not believe what I did was wrong"

"but at 10-15 MPH, c'mon, my grandfather's reaction time is a whole faster than that"

 

[Stevo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
other than that,
i think i've seen cops violate the most traffic laws while on patrol, curiously noboby seems to want to teach them a lesson...

~S~

amen to that...

I have NO problem with police writing tickets/enforcing rules that they expect most to abide by (including themselves). But for chickens*** tickets like "rolling" through a sign (I am not referring to going through at 10 or 15mph) give me a break...

I wish police would enfore the laws with CONTEXT taken into consideration...

agreed VinBin

for the most part, those who preach zero tolerance are the easiest one's to catch creating 'violations'

~S~

 

[Jon]

In PA, the law for "Ambulances, Paramedic Units, Organ Transport Vehices and Blood Transport Vehicles" requires a full stop at every stop sign or red light. Police/LEO's and the FD are legally able to procede through a red light or stop sign without stopping, but an Ambulance isn't.

My part-time employer has a VERY strict driving policy. We must come to a complete stop and then may procede through the intersection "lane by lane" as it is clear. Failure to do so is an AUTOMATIC TERMINATION. Thats right, folks... if I run a red light when running hot... I get fired.

If I can't run red lights or stop signs when I'm using Emergency lights, how can I do that if I'm using courtesy lights? I think there is a difference between "blowing through" a stop sign at 10 or 15 MPH vs. failing to come to a COMPLETE stop. Neither is OK, but in some cases one is more OK than the other, if that makes sense.

Our job is to save lives, and we can only do that if we arrive safe and in the same condition as we started the trip.

 

[Stevo]

so would your employer also fire you for doing 29 instead of 30 compressions Jon?

how about just having that wheel visibly turning, just a tad, before progressing through that stop sign?

and while we're at it, should your kid be expelled from school for having a baby asprin in his/her pocket ?

you guys can preach the old safety carnard here til the cows come home

some of us know as a**hole when we see one

~S~

 

[oldschoolmedic]

It's so refreshing to see our youth actually embracing concepts like public safety and personal responsibility. Yes there are many shades of gray to the letter of the law, but they are for attorneys to find. They are not for the personal adjudication by the ticketing officer on the side of the road. Imagine this, what would happen if any traffic violation were up for discussion and review at the time of said infraction? WOULD ANYTHING EVER GET DONE? Nope. There is a time and place for discussion and that is traffic court. Like I said go and plead your case to the officer in a polite and contrite manner and you will be surprised at how quickly this will disappear. Be stupid and I hope he sticks it to you like the lesson it should be. He wasn't being the a$$hole in this case you were, regardless of the opinion of the youth majority here.

Oh and Stevo please compare apples to apples in future posts.

 

[Ridryder911]

I do not understand an EMS professional that would endorse unsafe practices. Obviously, those that have been through EVO courses recognize the potential dangers, as well as we understand what even the speed of 10 mph can create. This should not even be debatable.

Promoting unsafe behavior does not display wise thinking, as we should be demonstrating as much as lecturing to others.

R/r 911

 

[Stevo]

Oh and Stevo please compare apples to apples in future posts.

well we went from the chicken**** violation to zero tolerance
oldschoolmedic

they're closely related

none of us here that can say we follow ALL the rules ALL the time, TO the letter, can we?

~S~

 

[oldschoolmedic]

No, people do not follow all of the rules all of the time, but to do something so mindnumbingly stupid as to blow a stop sign at 15 mph then blame the police officer for being a hardass is the high point of arrogance. Apparently you have never been to court, and actually believe it to be like it is on television where everyone gets to wax eloquent about any answer they give. Trust me it is not. So when you offer anything more than what you are asked and are told to shut up, it will be a bit of a slap in the face. Attorneys are paid to make people look stupid. They love having somone like you who deals in shades of gray in the witness stand, because the next guy in the chair will be someone like me who has been doing this for almost twenty years, has been to court, knows how to testify, and will lay it out clearly how it is against industry acceptable driving practice to blow through that stop sign. Juries like black and white answers, they are easy to understand and defend. He did wrong, he broke the law. He got caught and was ticketed appropriately. Here is where he can show some maturity and learn something by going to court and making an intelligent case showing he has learned his lesson and being contrite. Instead all of you young guns want to slam the LEO for doing his job. You're the same guys who offer up such witticisms as, "Don't tell me my job, I don't tell you how to flip burgers." This kind of cowboy attitude is part of the reason EMS hasn't progressed a great deal past the eighties. Technologically we have, but the attitude is the same. So missing one compression is the same as blowing through the stop sign? How about this? When I am doing CPR on your loved one will you actually count my compressions? No you won't. Now if I T-bone your family blowing through a stop sign regardless of speed, are you going to hire an attorney and sue the pants off of me, my employer, and anyone else you might wring a dollar from? Hell yes you will. So why take the chance? That's what this whole thread is about. This guy got popped doing the wrong thing, and he's trying to shift blame. Doesn't wash here or in court.

 

[KEVD18]

oldschoolmedic:

+1 a hundred times over. thast what ive been trying to say

 

[VinBin]

Instead all of you young guns want to slam the LEO for doing his job. You're the same guys who offer up such witticisms as, "Don't tell me my job, I don't tell you how to flip burgers." This kind of cowboy attitude is part of the reason EMS hasn't progressed a great deal past the eighties. Technologically we have, but the attitude is the same. So missing one compression is the same as blowing through the stop sign? How about this? When I am doing CPR on your loved one will you actually count my compressions? No you won't. Now if I T-bone your family blowing through a stop sign regardless of speed, are you going to hire an attorney and sue the pants off of me, my employer, and anyone else you might wring a dollar from? Hell yes you will. So why take the chance? That's what this whole thread is about. This guy got popped doing the wrong thing, and he's trying to shift blame. Doesn't wash here or in court.

I believe you completely missed what I (and Stevo I assume) was trying to say. We were emphasizing that Context be taken into consideration when laws are enforced.

I agree the situation that started this topic here is a no brainer, HE BROKE THE LAW, and it was EXCESSIVE. I can't imagive driving through a stop at 15mph and calling that "rolling through" with due regard. I think the fear is that once "one person" is allowed to drive through a stop sign at 2mph with due regard, there will be a resulting mass chaos where everyone is flying through at 100mph. This is absurd, as thats where we as humans begin using our heads to see which is dangerous and which is harmless...

oldschoolmedic, you seem to have dragged this to encompass certain aspects of EMS that dont relate at all... How do you pull out a "cowboy attitude" in EMS out of us advocating a contextual application of law?

And juries don't like shades?? Since when? The law itself is based on shades of right/wrong. Take manslaughter, negligence, or many other classifications. They are all shades of "right" and "wrong".

 

[oldschoolmedic]

No, I completely understand what you are trying to say. You are saying that the side of the road is where all traffic violations should be adjudicated (context considered) and that you are willing to allow LEOs to decide who is wrong or right and to what extent as well. Well the LEO in this instance did just that. He decided that in his opinion the person in question was wrong and cited him. The trouble with the slippery slope upon which you tread is where is the oversight? The court is where the context should be taken into consideration, most judges are actually reasonable IF you are contrite about these things. They want to see growth and maturity about what has occurred. Presently in most areas the LEO does have the leeway to write a citation for a lesser offense if, in his judgement, it is warranted, then he will advise you to see him before traffic court actually begins so that he may "help" you with your ticket. This is another area where context comes into play. Present him with a decent explanation of your offense and the ticket may go away. The NY State Police have recently had this authority taken away from them. If you are doing 65 in a 55, you can no longer be written for the lesser offense of 64 in a 55, which keeps it to a two point violation (<10 over the posted limit). Nobody gets the deal anymore, because everybody got a deal before, effectively rendering traffic laws toothless.

As to the cowboy attitude, speed does NOT save lives. Arriving safely does. Blowing off stop signs, speeding through residential districts or school zones, tailgating because someone won't move out of your way, these are all macho BS attitudes we don't need on the streets. The problem is youth is indestructable and attracted to the fast and flashy. It is one of the things that draws people to this job. Hey, I can drive as fast as I want to calls. We are all inherently adrenaline junkies to some extent. The trouble with that is, you are playing against the law of averages. It is not a matter of IF you wreck your vehicle, but when. The "cowboy" attitude is that whole loner thing, only "we" can save this person regardless of what laws "we" violate to do it. Everybody has a cool code 3 story to tell.

As an industry we allow anybody to drive an ambulance, which can be up to eight tons of high speed steel rolling down the street. The smaller the service the more likely it is to occur. Some places have instituted raising the age to drive to as high as 23 to minimize the youth factor, other places allow anyone with a driver's license to drive. There is no standard as to training. You do not have to take an EVOC or EVDT course, because they can be expensive. Police and fire departments have standards with regards to operating their vehicles, they are written and enforcible. Driving the vehicles is taught at their respective academies. In EMS vehicle operation is a joke. There is no acceptable standard. The "Due Regard" mantra we all chant is so open to interpretation as to be almost meaningless, because what I term due regard may not be your interpretation. I am almost too cautious when operating code. I've been accused of being a "granny." Such an insult to my masculinity, darn. The reason I drive the way I do is because I have had to go to court to defend my driving after being T-boned by a 19 year old jackass who blew through a stoplight and hit us at seventy in a thirty-five. Spent a couple of days in the hospital, and had the oppurtunity to look into my mother's eyes when she came to see me in the Trauma room at the regional trauma center. That was so much fun.

Lawyers like shades of gray, juries like black and white answers. When you discuss the vaguaries of courtroom law it has nothing to do with the jury. Juries receive specific instructions about what the law says a crime entails. It is then up to the jury to decide if the lawyers have painted the proper picture for them to convict or acquit. The jury just doesn't get together and say guilty or not. Their answer is black and white. The system was designed this way to alleviate guilty feelings on the part of jurors and to protect the rights of the accused. Either a defendant is clearly guilty or not in the eyes of a jury. Any other answer results in a hung jury or a mistrial. Public perception of guilt is another matter entirely.

I am not seeking universal agreement on this. There never will be such a thing. I fully understand what you and Stevo are trying to say, but the side of the road is not where context needs to be considered. I have never had an LEO be unreasonable with me at anytime I have been stopped. I have no points on my license, not to say I haven't afforded myself the oppurtunity, but it has been clean for over ten years. I attribute this almost wholly on obeying the rules of the traffic stop, pull over immediately to where it is safe for the LEO, hands where they can be seen, no funny movements, all documents in order and presented quickly, no BS explanations, sign and accept the citation politely, leave without being an ***. Then I go to court and plead my case. It works. I realize the officer is just doing his job and that is what rankled me about this thread. There was almost universal condemnation for this officer becuase he stopped this guy on the way to a call. People seemed willing to overlook the fact he was breaking the law. They are also willing to overlook the fact we, collectively, are painted with the same brush... "Speeding EMT runs stop sign, kills family etc..." This is the kind of publicity we as an industry can do without. We know better, we should try to do better.

 

[BossyCow]

.I realize the officer is just doing his job and that is what rankled me about this thread. There was almost universal condemnation for this officer becuase he stopped this guy on the way to a call. People seemed willing to overlook the fact he was breaking the law. They are also willing to overlook the fact we, collectively, are painted with the same brush... "Speeding EMT runs stop sign, kills family etc..." This is the kind of publicity we as an industry can do without. We know better, we should try to do better.

Agreed, wholeheartedly! I despise the attitude of "All LEOs, Paramedics, Nurses, Docs, (fill in job description of choice) are :censored: because one just caught me doing something I probably shouldn't have done" Not saying we don't all make mistakes, we do. Maturity tells us to own up, take our lumps for it and promise to try to do better next time.

 

[Stevo]

i'm truely sorry for your misfortunate intersection incident oldschoolmedic, and you know we've something in common as i too ended up in the trauma room

but i don't blame all women drivers because one almost did me in ....

I'm sure your aware Zero Tolerance is an issue highly debated, an exerpt worth your time...

"Zero tolerance" policing violates the Law Enforcement Code of Conduct passed by the International Association of Chiefs of Police, which says in part: "The fundamental duties of a police officer include serving the community, safeguarding lives and property, protecting the innocent, keeping the peace and ensuring the rights of all to liberty, equality and justice" (cited in Robinson, 2002). This code requires that police behave in a courteous and fair manner, that they treat all citizens in a respectable and decent manner, and that they never use unnecessary force

more if you need it...

~S~

 

[oldschoolmedic]

I am not advocating zero tolerance as a policy, far from it. I simply do not believe the side of the road is the place to explain your case to the officer. The citation is merely an acknowledgement of the offense, nothing more. What you are proposing is all traffic cases be left up to the officer on scene to decide who gets what. He already uses his personal discretion to decide if the violation you have commited is worth ticketing. You are proposing the LEO act as judge and jury. Shoot, give them a lockbox for their trunks and they could be court clerks too. Allow them to assign points and we can cut out the DMV as well. The courts exist for a reason. They are the check and balance to law enforcement. Everyone has their day in court, use it to your advantage. Make a reasonable plea for your case, and surprisingly the fine or punishment will be minimal in the hope you learned something from the experience.

I am not blaming all youth based upon the solo chucklehead who hit my ambulance. He managed to plead his case down to speed too fast for conditions, he had his day (13 days actually) in court. I trust no other driver to make the right decision where my safety is concerned, be they old or young. The only behavior I can control is my own.

I have read the excerpted Wikipedia article. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is a highly suspect source to gather your information. If you will reread the article you will note traffic enforcement is not the subject of the article, but instead it relates to community oriented policing aimed at reducing prostitution, drugs, geographically specific crimes, and briefly touches on alcohol related offenses. Traffic enforcement is pretty cut and dried, you either did it or not. The LEOs still have discretion as to whether to pursue you or not, and then whether to ticket you or not. As an example, this evening I was on my way home driving approximately 80 in a 70 zone. I was in the flow of traffic with about ten others around me. We crested a hill and who should be sitting there like a fly on the wall but the SCHP (in one of those cool new Chargers). He didn't stop anyone. Did we set off the radar, definitely. The problem is who does he pick from the pack, the first guy, the last guy? This is where his personal judgement came into play, he let us go on. Defensible, definitely. Zero tolerance, hardly. This is what I am advocating, common sense. Something which is sadly lacking today.


We, as public safety professionals, should be held to a higher standard of accountability regarding operation of our vehicles. Read the Jems article this month about the patient dying in the back when the unit wrecked. Note the vehicle that struck the ambulance was in the right, he had the green light and not speeding. While the unit may have been operating emergently they ran a red light at speed and were struck, resulting in the patient's death. Also injured in this were the medics treating the patient. You can almost see the attorneys circling the scene. All it would have taken to prevent this would be for the driver to have stopped at a red light. Now the patient is dead, worker's comp is paying through the nose for the injured employees, and therapy for the driver's PTSD. All for an adrenaline rush. All of EMS is being tarred with the same brush by this sort of event. It puts us in a negative light because we are supposed to save lives, cheat death as it were. We bring hope. Instead this patient died because the driver couldn't be bothered to stop. Now before we jump on the lights and siren thing, does it matter if they were on or not? The witnesses acknowledge they were activated, but the ambulance still ran the light and caused the accident.

What can we learn from this tragedy? Hopefully someone will read that article and the next time they run hot they will recognize what they are doing and lift their foot off of the accelerator, or stop to clear the intersection before another collision occurs.

The blame for this whole thread lays at the feet of an overzealous emt, not the LEO doing his job.

 

[VinBin]

He didn't stop anyone. Did we set off the radar, definitely. The problem is who does he pick from the pack, the first guy, the last guy? This is where his personal judgement came into play, he let us go on. Defensible, definitely. Zero tolerance, hardly. This is what I am advocating, common sense. Something which is sadly lacking today.

Hmm...This is what I was advocating too. What is the debate then, we both agree on this matter, what is the disagreement then with the previous statements from Stevo and me?

The blame for this whole thread lays at the feet of an overzealous emt, not the LEO doing his job.

Agreed with you on this from the start...