To a point, I'd say it is your job/duty to "wrestle" with an out-of-control patient. Again, lets remember, we're talking patients, not a$$holes. If you and your partner(s) have the means and strength to physically control a patient, you should do so as safely as possible, but backing off because you think its not your job to get physical could easily be argued to be a dereliction of duty in many instances. (To be certain, I'm speaking more broadly than just overdoses or intoxications.)
This makes me mad
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To a point, I'd say it is your job/duty to "wrestle" with an out-of-control patient. Again, lets remember, we're talking patients, not a$$holes. If you and your partner(s) have the means and strength to physically control a patient, you should do so as safely as possible, but backing off because you think its not your job to get physical could easily be argued to be a dereliction of duty in many instances. (To be certain, I'm speaking more broadly than just overdoses or intoxications.)
Angel
Paramedic
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I don't know where you work, but where I work the drug users generally don't hang out with the upstanding citizens... usually their friends that they're doing the drugs with are easily as dangerous and high as they are... PD is your best friend. remember that. remember who told you that
i completely agree. situational awareness first and foremost.
its a jungle out there
...no winky face
EMDispatch
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There are no studies I'm aware of, I'd imagine that there probably isn't. Often time the calls we have issues with are given with a false complaint, or something similar.That said, we dispatch PD on all deliberate and non-perscription ODs. It's both due to safety and that fact it's also a police matter.
I did a cursory search of pubmed and didn't find anything either. I don't think it is a bad idea to have PD on scene when you can. But, their presence does not make it nearly as "safe" as some would like. An overdose is not necessarily a police matter. It is if there is a death, for sure. But unless there is illegal drugs present, which in my experience there usually is not, there's not much for them to do other than take a "report". And, that sort of report taking is generally a result of police not having bigger problems to deal with.
Bullets
Forum Knucklehead
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Horsehockey, i think drug users are inherently violent and dangerous because drug users are the ones who account for every assault on a EMT, Medic or hospital staff in my system and at the regional trauma center for the last five years. So yeah, i want a guy with a gun standing there when the drug user wakes up and tries to cold cock you. The hospital now has a protocol that Narcan is not to be administered without security present, preferably the patient in restraints
Calling 911 is probable cause to enter, so guess what, the cops are coming in
These categories are not mutually exclusive
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EMDispatch
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I'll speak from prior experience, much as many LEOs have disdain for those reports they play a big role in the ability to track distribution of narcotics. It all helps add little pieces to a huge puzzle.
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I don't know where you work, but where I work the drug users generally don't hang out with the upstanding citizens... usually their friends that they're doing the drugs with are easily as dangerous and high as they are... PD is your best friend. remember that. remember who told you that
This.
I think someone is misleading you. Every assault on medical staff is by someone intoxicated? I do not believe you. (Unless your hospitals ONLY serve people who are high.) Patients with head injuries never assault? Delirious octogenarians never assault? Psych patients never assault? What a bizarre world you're in that only drug users assault medical staff.
Never expect a patient that is altered to respect a guy with a gun, but do fear them getting that gun from that guy (a past study on hospital shootings found that something like 50% of shooters in the ED got their gun from police or security; E.g. 2005 at St. Mary's Hospital in Newtown, Pa).
If you're (not you specifically) having to consistently put suspected opiate overdose patients in restraints then you're probably doing it wrong (e.g. too much naloxone too quickly).
So, I know I'm sounding like a ****. Basically, I'm trying to impress upon you why what you have said sounds not real (not saying you're making it up).
Sure. But, you have no duty to protect and care for someone who is not a patient. Up to a point, just because the patient is combative/violent does not mean you can just get up and walk/run away. You have a duty to protect a patient from harm to themselves or others, and just because some guy with a badge and gun is not present does not preclude you from attempting to control the patient. While none of us want to get hurt, it is an inherent risk of the job. When you are very over-powered or are being threatened with deadly force, certainly it is prudent to leave the scene.
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Prove it. Provide some evidence. Something more substantial than your personal (and probably very limited) experience. Until you do, you are simply wrong.
OK, so not only is every drug user violent, but also, no one ever becomes violent until they use drugs?
Someone is feeding you some serious BS. That, and someone needs to teach you guys that the proper dose of nalaxone is not 2mg rapid IVP.
Just because that's the law doesn't make it right, or a good idea. In your great-grandparent's lifetime it was legal in America for men to hit their wives, women couldn't vote, and blacks had virtually no rights at all. Still in many countries today, those and much worse discriminatory practices remain perfectly legal. So just because the law says something doesn't mean it's justified. If you want to have a serious discussion about this stuff, you need a much better argument than "that's what the law says".
Bullets, you seem to have a serious bias against people who abuse drugs, and you also sound quite naive about what most drug abusers look and act like. This will cause you problems in a healthcare career, since abuse of both illicit and non-illicit substances is so rampant among those who require healthcare services. Contrary to what the DARE program and today's police tell you, people who abuse drugs are usually NOT strung out and living on the street. They also aren't usually violent (something like 90% of those in prison on drug charges were never even accused of a violent crime). I would suggest taking some classes or doing some reading on the topic.
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I'm thinking this. Obviously I can't give narcan, but I am pretty knowledgable about opiates/opioids because I take one myself & I am just kind of fascinated by them & their MOA for some reason. I've never met anyone who was violent on narcotics - usually they like everyone & want to talk a lot. Now, if you slam the narcan & send them into withdrawal, then yeah, they probably won't be too happy with you. Titrate it up until they're breating adequately, then leave them be. It will be better for all involved.
As for this dude in the article, well, he owns his business & he is allowed to determine who he wants in there. If he doesn't want the cops in there & there are no exigent circumstances or any other reason for them to be there, then they don't need to go in. Personally, I'm not letting the cops in my house/apartment (wouldn't even answer the door) or my car.
eprex
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I don't see any reason to be mad here. The firefighters and medic took a risk, as they tend to do, and it paid off. They are not giving you a bad name or denigrating the trade. Not to mention it's Portland, so who knows how different that area may be compared to say NYC or Los Angeles, etc.
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There have been plenty of calls where we have chosen to enter the house with fire despite the sheriff's office having a significant ETA. Not every overdose is the result of some drug-abusing cretin who's strung out and bent on destruction. I know my area, it's rural with above average rates of narcotic abuse. It's a risk to enter I suppose, but no more risky than a disoriented diabetic at many locales where I am. There are guns in most every house, and there are plenty of "the government stays off my property types." Yet we do fine, or we simply would not do it. Not one coworker can relate a time where LE would have stopped a provider assault, and most happen with them present or while transporting.
Blanket statements about how calls should be run by EMS as a whole are senseless.
Blanket statements about how calls should be run by EMS as a whole are senseless.
ExpatMedic0
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I go to this coffee shop sometimes. Its a harmless place and the people who run it are good folks who simply have different ideological beliefs than most. Its also a well known "safe space" in Portland for many social disparities, where homophobia, sexism, racism, ect are not tolerated. They also have some good local shows. Perhaps the concept is to far fetched for some, but they don't serve police as customers and also do their best to keep them off the property. I am perfectly ok with that and I have always felt safe when I go to this coffee shop. Not to mention its a small place full of windows. You can see everything going on inside from the outside. Here is their website http://www.redandblackcafe.com/
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Bullets
Forum Knucklehead
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The assaults at the hospital are those that are reported as they result in injury. As far as my service goes, no, ive never had a head injury, or a geri assault me or anyone else on our staff. PD transports psychs so i cant speak to that type of call but they are pretty cooperative in this town. Even when we transport drunks they might wiggle and such but never actually fight us. Usually those that are alert enough get refusals, or they just get cuffed and taken to HQ
We also only got Narcan at the BLS level like a month ago, so before that, overdoses just got bagged if they werent breathing, or nothing if they were just sleeping.
Maybe its not all because i dont have the internal hospital numbers, but it seems like a disproportionate number of assaults are a result of people on advanced narcotics
nwhitney
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Ah Portland. My home town. I'm not a fan of the Red & Black not because of the co-owners views but more due to his ignorance potentially causing harm to others. I know a good chunk of the Portland cops and if they were going to do anything with this guy it would be to take him to the drunk tank with no citations or anything else of that nature.