The real story behind the 12 week medic McCook NE

[Carlos Danger]

Neither can a RN.

No, but I don't see any nurses arguing otherwise.

I know that, to some, my point is a small one of semantics. To me, though, the perpetuation of the fallacy that we operate "under a physician's license" is yet another of the many reasons that we struggle to be taken seriously as medical professionals. Especially when we're the ones doing the perpetuating.

I'm not sure why or how acknowledging the legal realities of what we do would contribute to us not being taken seriously. Most allied health professions require physician authorization to do most of what they do, and they are taken seriously. No state will allow a PA to practice without some level of physician oversight. NP's and CRNA's can in many states, but not all. Technically, RN's practice nursing autonomously, but still need medical orders to do most of what they do. Same with RRT's. Even professions that are 100% autonomous, like pharmacists and physical therapists, still must be consulted by a physician and are involved with patient care only so much as the attending wants them to be, in the hospital setting.

 

[MrJones]

...Most allied health professions require physician authorization to do most of what they do, and they are taken seriously. No state will allow a PA to practice without some level of physician oversight. NP's and CRNA's can in many states, but not all. Technically, RN's practice nursing autonomously, but still need medical orders to do most of what they do. Same with RRT's. Even professions that are 100% autonomous, like pharmacists and physical therapists, still must be consulted by a physician and are involved with patient care only so much as the attending wants them to be, in the hospital setting.

All true. But answer this - How many practitioners in those professions routinely state that they "...are working under a physician's medical license"? And this - Are you working under a physician's license or are you working under your own license with oversight by a physician?

 

[Carlos Danger]

All true. But answer this - How many practitioners in those professions routinely state that they "...are working under a physician's medical license"? And this - Are you working under a physician's license or are you working under your own license with oversight by a physician?

I don't know that I've ever heard this topic discussed among anyone other than paramedics. RN's, RRT's, et al just know their legal status and don't make an issue of it.

 

[NomadicMedic]

I don't know that I've ever heard this topic discussed among anyone other than paramedics. RN's, RRT's, et al just know their legal status and don't make an issue of it.

And even most paramedics don't make a issue of it. It's just a function of the job. We've got bigger issues in developing as a profession than who sets the conditions of care.

 

[MrJones]

I don't know that I've ever heard this topic discussed among anyone other than paramedics. RN's, RRT's, et al just know their legal status and don't make an issue of it.

Exactly. And those in our profession that do make an issue of it typically get it wrong. And that's my point.

 

[Carlos Danger]

Exactly. And those in our profession that do make an issue of it typically get it wrong. And that's my point.

I suppose I misunderstood, then.

The only reason I even replied to your post was because, like DE said, we have much bigger fish to fry and I hate to see people get all wound up about this.

The issue of "licensure vs. certification" and authority for practice is one that more than a few paramedics seem to get bogged down in, thinking it is an important issue that negatively affects the advancement of paramedicine, when it fact it does no such thing.

 

[CMCSNRP]

Exactly. And those in our profession that do make an issue of it typically get it wrong. And that's my point.

So why make an issue of it? My comment was simply to say that my medical director is very involved with our EMS system. Do you have M.D. after your name or are you a paramedic? Paramedics operate on protocols, online/offline medical direction etc. I will just remind everyone that this conversation started with me posting a thread about an educational opportunity with an accredited accelerated program which MrJones and others were obviously not fans of because accelerated programs supposedly create ambulance drivers and protocol monkies. I believe that you sir feel the need to have the last word on everything. So I will simply say this, working under a physician's license/working under a physician's oversight are in fact the same thing because that licensed physician is your medical director and without that person if you were to perform ALS procedures in most states you would be prosecuted. My biggest issue with forums such as this is that the productive conversation gets pushed aside with criticism and hate mail. No matter how much discontent you spread about it people are still going to take this route to become paramedics because they have families, busy schedules, experience, a passion for the job, etc. As far as "being compared to 12 week wonders" as one person stated. Positive attitudes and solid patient care are going to be the only thing that changes healthcare's view on EMS as a whole. If the attitudes in EMS don't change, neither will the perception that Paramedics and EMT's are knuckle draggers.

 

[MrJones]

...I will just remind everyone that this conversation started with me posting a thread about an educational opportunity with an accredited accelerated program which MrJones and others were obviously not fans of because accelerated programs supposedly create ambulance drivers and protocol monkies....

If you'll recall, I actually first participated in this thread to note that McCook's program is CAAHEP accredited -

I don't agree with the concept and wouldn't personally enroll in a 12 week program, but in their defense they are accredited by CAAHEP so they must be meeting at least the minimum requirements.

Nowhere did I say or imply that it creates "ambulance drivers and protocol monkies." Those are your words.

As far as the rest of your screed is concerned, I think it would be best to simply agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Handsome Robb]

This is a fantastic reason for the blended learning option. Few people can take a year off from work to earn their paramedic.



The PERCOM seems to be the golden standard for training. It is not a "16 week short course" but fully a thorough programme.



I read on here somewhere that it took two years for someone to get through paramedic.

PERCOM is far from the gold standard. They can't even teach their program in most states now....

 

[triemal04]

As an experienced EMS provider I went to school with other experienced providers. We did half a day of classroom and half a day of lab every day. I understand where the hostility comes from with accelerated/hybrid programs because I recently saw a thread about an online paramedic program. I am also concerned about the direction that education is taking however.. Programs such as the one that I attended are not intended for the 19 year old EMT who's ink has not had the chance to dry. I am fast approaching a decade in this field and where I lived previously Paramedics were few and far between. As a result of that medic programs locally had a lengthy waiting list. EMS professionals such as myself with experience in the field military/civilian alike are sometimes attracted to the option of streamlining their education. On the subject of team leadership, it was a small class so everyone practiced scenarios as team leader on a daily basis. On the subject of personal growth, obviously you have never been put in that situation so it would be hard to comprehend. But I can tell you the experience fundamentally changes you. Ask any recon marine, you would be downright astonished how much information you can absorb in a twelve week time period.

Just imagine my eyes rolling right now...

I I I...me me me...good lord man! Do you even listen to yourself? This isn't about you or what your singular personal experience was with this course, it's about whether or not this is an appropriate course for everyone to take because...well...it's open to everyone with the money.

MAYBE you were able to be successful in this course...or maybe you just don't know that you weren't yet.

MAYBE a highspeed ex-military and highly experienced EMT such as yourself just wanted to "streamline" your education...or maybe you just wanted a shortcut.

MAYBE that course can cram everything into a short period of time in such a way that the knowledge will be retained...or maybe a lot of that will be forgotten over the following year.

And so you know, 230 hours of clinical time spent in the hospital and 200 hours spent in the field is nothing to brag about. All it is <drumroll> is the minimum that is required these days.

 

[Tigger]

I've said this many times and I'll likely continue to say it, but hours are hours and that's how paramedic programs are measured. To say that "12 weeks is too short" makes no sense. If the same material is covered, how is it any different?

I have no doubt that not everyone can learn on that sort of timeline, but not everyone learns well as a part time student either. It has nothing to do with previous EMS or healthcare experience either, but rather everything to do with individual learning styles.

I got my BA on a "block" type schedule. Classes were Monday through Friday, nine to noon, five days a week. One class at a time for 18 sessions, and then you were done and on to the next one. Our psych department studied psych majors and knowledge retention over the course of a few years compared to similar schools and found that a) college students retain probably half of what they learn (common in all fields of education) and that b) students at this college retained information to the same degree as traditional semester plan students.

The "accelerated and intensive model" is not in itself flawed as so many claim it to be, but rather not everyone student is a good fit for it, especially those that are drawn to the idea of being done quickly.