the 100% directionless thread

[Tigger]

Was worse here. DC was DC police+ nat'l guard + secret service police, 50+ injuries to the collective group of responders. The worst part was the revolutionary war style tactic, of gather folks in a church and then burn it. Other history fact is it was the church of the presidents (every president since James Madison in 1816 attended there once).

At least 50 Secret Service agents injured by rioters

Rioters threw Molotov cocktails and bottles at agents and set buildings on fire

www.policeone.com

I am not ok with violence and I don't advocate for it.

Do the police really think there won't be a confrontation when they move on peaceful demonstrators with rubber bullets and tear gas before a curfew starts? https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/...cal-of-president-trumps-church-visit/2319756/

Get it together. You know what the police did when the crowds in Denver didn't disband a full two hours after the curfew started last night? Nothing. Because nothing needing police was happening. There was no violence, no setting fires, no destruction of property. People were expressing emotion in a non-destrutive way. Let it be. Maybe if law enforcement stopped confronting disobodience as if it always always always leads to rioting there wouldn't be so much rioting?

The public safety community has struggled for years with optics, and it continues to.

 

[DragonClaw]

Good! You won’t regret it, and the degree helps.

I thought about the class and not the degree. But it's like 3/4 the effort and you can't say you have a degree. I think even an AS looks good on a resume.

Plus there's all the extra training and teaching. Psychology classes you get and dealing with psych calls etc.

I talked to the program director and she was just asked to speak on the difference of the two. She said the field is moving towards needing a degree and we run a lot of variety of calls. A better knowledge base will help applications where others didn't have the training on it.

She asked them "At least 15% of our calls are psych. Do you really want the certificate holder without the Psychology background to run them?"

I can apply college credits towards other things later, too.

Plus that schnazzy gold trim looks good.

 

[StCEMT]

Was worse here. DC was DC police+ nat'l guard + secret service police, 50+ injuries to the collective group of responders. The worst part was the revolutionary war style tactic, of gather folks in a church and then burn it. Other history fact is it was the church of the presidents (every president since James Madison in 1816 attended there once).

At least 50 Secret Service agents injured by rioters

Rioters threw Molotov cocktails and bottles at agents and set buildings on fire

www.policeone.com

Had 2 officers shot last night. Not protest related, but guess I spoke too soon.

 

[NysEms2117]

I am not ok with violence and I don't advocate for it.

Do the police really think there won't be a confrontation when they move on peaceful demonstrators with rubber bullets and tear gas before a curfew starts? https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/...cal-of-president-trumps-church-visit/2319756/

Get it together. You know what the police did when the crowds in Denver didn't disband a full two hours after the curfew started last night? Nothing. Because nothing needing police was happening. There was no violence, no setting fires, no destruction of property. People were expressing emotion in a non-destrutive way. Let it be. Maybe if law enforcement stopped confronting disobodience as if it always always always leads to rioting there wouldn't be so much rioting?

The public safety community has struggled for years with optics, and it continues to.

I'd agree mostly, and maybe yes. I'd also like to note- i don't do law enforcement in my current job. Im counter terrorism. I'd start by saying from a former LEO i've never been taught to knee like that, or anything of the sort honestly, and i'm rather disgusted by that as everybody else is. I fully support 100% peaceful ideas, given the oath I once took quite literally has the phrase "I will always uphold the constitution" in it, and the oath i am currently appointed under says "I will defend the constitution[of the United States] against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Just a couple ideas and questions (I honestly dont know the answers because of work hours lately (30+ in 2.5 days)
Has there been a peaceful protest where all the protesters up and left at or before curfew?
How do law enforcement personnel/National guard/US army enforce protection of property without using force (Governor Cuomo called for that explicitly).
Does the "bordem" of the coronavirus lockdown play into effect in this?
Should police force the protestors home at 2001, given they are breaking the law at that moment? If not when is the unofficial line?
And finally a question for my "techies"- do we think mobile phone tracing is a viable option to find the "bad apples" in the protests (ultimately raising them to riots by setting buildings, cars, churches on fire, as well as trying to harm other humans)

As I wrote this on my "lunch/dinner/coffee" break i'd just like to re-emphasize that i'm not saying either side is good or bad. I fully support the Constitution, however rule 1 of substantive law(old criminal justice class) is never create laws without enforcement mechanisms. Bottom line- YES for peaceful protests, fighting for what in my opinion is a fundamental human right. NO for riots, and violence.

 

[Tigger]

Has there been a peaceful protest where all the protesters up and left at or before curfew?

I guess I would ask why it matters that peaceful protesters go home? If law enforcement can avoid harming people by just leaving them be, and those folks protesting are not damaging anything it, what do they gain by clearing them out with force? An empty park? Hooray.

 

[CCCSD]

Because those people that choose to remain after a protest have demonstrated a high propensity for illegal acts.

Guess you MISSED all the Murders, shooting, beating, attacks on LE across the nation. Good thing you can live in a place with rose colored glasses. The rest of us don’t.

The RIGHT to be safe in your place of business, everyday life, while following the laws, is not trumped by people wishing to protest.
Your rather dull and safer experiences don’t relate across the country.

The Rule of Law is the only thing that keeps your daily delivery of snacky-cakes and cheesy poofs in your kitchen.

 

[Old Tracker]

I live in the boonies in Tx and work in a small city on the interstate where only travelers who need fuel or food stop. Covid has been a pain, but our confirmed cases were few, relatively speaking. No signs of protest here, so we're lucky.

To those of you out there who are impacted by this bovine scat rioting, I hope and pray ya'll manage to stay safe. Vayan con Dios!

 

[VFlutter]

I guess I would ask why it matters that peaceful protesters go home? If law enforcement can avoid harming people by just leaving them be, and those folks protesting are not damaging anything it, what do they gain by clearing them out with force? An empty park? Hooray.

Prevention. You don't wait until the situation is out of control and a riot to intervene. You set a line in the sand, i.e. curfew, and enforce it so that things do not snowball after dark like they almost certainly do.

Last night in St. Louis protesters peacefully demonstrated during the day until night fell when 4 officers were shot, a ex police officer was murdered trying to prevent a store from being looted, and numerous buisnesses looted and burned to the ground with assuaults on responding firefighters.

Things are peaceful until they are not. Fully support and respect the right to assemble and protest however there needs to be boundaries. Take the fuse out of the powder-keg

 

[Seirende]

Came across a crash today with multiple emergency vehicles with flashing lights in the dark and the rain. Slowed way down and looked carefully for someone directing traffic. The firefighter directing traffic was wearing reflective gear so worn that I still barely saw him. My sister didn't see him at all until I mentioned that I had almost missed seeing him. I went back and let him know he was barely visible against the bright flashing lights behind him. Hope he stays safe.

 

[DragonClaw]

Can someone explain physics to me.

1. Why are you supposed to accelerate into a curve.

2. Why does a gurnry become more likely to flip while raised? Why isn't the probability directly correlated to height rather than exponentially like I think I remember reading?

Does anyone have that one gurney flipping diagram about various forces on it at different angles and heights?

 

[Tigger]

Prevention. You don't wait until the situation is out of control and a riot to intervene. You set a line in the sand, i.e. curfew, and enforce it so that things do not snowball after dark like they almost certainly do.

Last night in St. Louis protesters peacefully demonstrated during the day until night fell when 4 officers were shot, a ex police officer was murdered trying to prevent a store from being looted, and numerous buisnesses looted and burned to the ground with assuaults on responding firefighters.

Things are peaceful until they are not. Fully support and respect the right to assemble and protest however there needs to be boundaries. Take the fuse out of the powder-keg

So if nothing is out of control, aside from a curfew violation, why intervene? That’s a guaranteed confrontation.

 

[DragonClaw]

Things are spicy down here

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=3154370097954077&id=455752241149223

Leading Ambulance Provider Responds to Harris County Emergency Services District No. 11’s Request for Qualifications

American Medical Response (AMR) provided an official response today to a request for qualifications (RFQ) issued by Harris County Emergency Services District No. 11 (ESD11). One of Texas’s largest emergency service districts, ESD11 covers a 177-square mile portion of northwest Harris County and...

montgomerycountypolicereporter.com

AMR wants to scoop up this contract that's on the precipice?

 

[RocketMedic]

Things are spicy down here

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=3154370097954077&id=455752241149223

Leading Ambulance Provider Responds to Harris County Emergency Services District No. 11’s Request for Qualifications

American Medical Response (AMR) provided an official response today to a request for qualifications (RFQ) issued by Harris County Emergency Services District No. 11 (ESD11). One of Texas’s largest emergency service districts, ESD11 covers a 177-square mile portion of northwest Harris County and...

montgomerycountypolicereporter.com

AMR wants to scoop up this contract that's on the precipice?

Mr. Nealy clearly has some trust and perception of integrity issues in this interaction with the ESD board, as did his now-“retired” boss Brad England. My guess is their appetites for public money started to become insatiable when they gutted Creek’s health insurance to go self-pay and somehow converted the cost per employee from ~9k/year with Cigna to more than $20k per employee for significantly less coverage (and with some illegal-but-unprovable terminations of people who used healthcare), but Wren also ran the Special Operations section for years and those books are pretty opaque. I don’t know if any laws were blatantly broken (although the charity calling ESD assets “donations” and borrowing against them and selling them seems extremely suspicious and screams money laundering to me), but the optics are horrific. #2 guy is co-owner of the billing company selected in a non-competitive bid and it’s owned by his wife? Benefits coordinator is a personal BFF of the CEO and his wife is a senior administrator of Creek? Yeah...

This whole thing is an object lesson in why honesty, integrity and trust are vital. Creek’s leadership took that trust- 45 years of it- and abused it. Look at that video- Wren’s expression says it all. He knows he can’t explain it and he knows he can’t fire the people asking questions. That’s fear.

“I will not lie, cheat or steal, nor will I tolerate those who do.”
With regards to the RFQ, I know Acadian and AMR have bid. I personally think Acadian Houston is better positioned to take over service there than AMR, but that’s primarily because AMR Houston has never been treated like a 911 service and their existing leadership and corporate support have done very little to cultivate the perception that they could be. For them to successfully assume service they would need to install a whole new culture and set of expectations. It’s definitely possible but would be challenging. I think both AMR and Acadian envision 12-hour SSM systems, which is not a bad thing at all in this context. Creek’s 24s are dangerous.


The most interesting bid to me is HCEC. Very similar operational models, but their leadership and operations learned from their collapse in the early/mid 2000s, but they’re already smaller than Creek. They would have to double-plus the size of their organization to assume these duties and I don’t know if that’s consistent with making the needed improvements, especially with what the ESD is wanting.

 

[DragonClaw]

Mr. Nealy clearly has some trust and perception of integrity issues in this interaction with the ESD board, as did his now-“retired” boss Brad England. My guess is their appetites for public money started to become insatiable when they gutted Creek’s health insurance to go self-pay and somehow converted the cost per employee from ~9k/year with Cigna to more than $20k per employee for significantly less coverage (and with some illegal-but-unprovable terminations of people who used healthcare), but Wren also ran the Special Operations section for years and those books are pretty opaque. I don’t know if any laws were blatantly broken (although the charity calling ESD assets “donations” and borrowing against them and selling them seems extremely suspicious and screams money laundering to me), but the optics are horrific. #2 guy is co-owner of the billing company selected in a non-competitive bid and it’s owned by his wife? Benefits coordinator is a personal BFF of the CEO and his wife is a senior administrator of Creek? Yeah...

This whole thing is an object lesson in why honesty, integrity and trust are vital. Creek’s leadership took that trust- 45 years of it- and abused it. Look at that video- Wren’s expression says it all. He knows he can’t explain it and he knows he can’t fire the people asking questions. That’s fear.

“I will not lie, cheat or steal, nor will I tolerate those who do.”
With regards to the RFQ, I know Acadian and AMR have bid. I personally think Acadian Houston is better positioned to take over service there than AMR, but that’s primarily because AMR Houston has never been treated like a 911 service and their existing leadership and corporate support have done very little to cultivate the perception that they could be. For them to successfully assume service they would need to install a whole new culture and set of expectations. It’s definitely possible but would be challenging. I think both AMR and Acadian envision 12-hour SSM systems, which is not a bad thing at all in this context. Creek’s 24s are dangerous.


The most interesting bid to me is HCEC. Very similar operational models, but their leadership and operations learned from their collapse in the early/mid 2000s, but they’re already smaller than Creek. They would have to double-plus the size of their organization to assume these duties and I don’t know if that’s consistent with making the needed improvements, especially with what the ESD is wanting.

Most Acadian is IFT here. I think AMR had the resources to run 911 as they're nationwide and not in a few states.

I have no idea how they really pick the comtract. Is it tournaments style. Is it a coin toss. (Joke). But I wonder what the deciding factor will be.

No doubt there's tons of potential opportunities. Maybe that's my chance. Maybe...

 

[Carlos Danger]

Because those people that choose to remain after a protest have demonstrated a high propensity for illegal acts.

Guess you MISSED all the Murders, shooting, beating, attacks on LE across the nation. Good thing you can live in a place with rose colored glasses. The rest of us don’t.

The RIGHT to be safe in your place of business, everyday life, while following the laws, is not trumped by people wishing to protest.
Your rather dull and safer experiences don’t relate across the country.

The Rule of Law is the only thing that keeps your daily delivery of snacky-cakes and cheesy poofs in your kitchen.

See? This is a big part of the reason why there is such a disconnect between police and much of the public these days.

The people who attacked LE and looted and burned buildings weren't peaceful protestors. Those aren't the people being talked about here.

Just shut up and do what I say!! I'm the boss! I'll arrest peaceful people if I want to!! We are the only thing keeping you safe and protecting your freedoms <by using violence against and arresting peaceful protestors>!!!

Sorry, but that approach is BS and it isn't working anymore.

 

[DragonClaw]

See? This is a big part of the reason why there is such a disconnect between police and much of the public these days.

The people who attacked LE and looted and burned buildings weren't peaceful protestors. Those aren't the people being talked about here.

Just shut up and do what I say!! I'm the boss! I'll arrest peaceful people if I want to!! We are the only thing keeping you safe and protecting your freedoms <by using violence against and arresting peaceful protestors>!!!

Sorry, but that approach is BS and it isn't working anymore.

Doesn't matter if you have a high propensity for illegal acts. That doesn't mean you can (rightfully) be arrested at will. People have the right to a peaceful protest. It could be for anything at any time.

Like how once someone's served their time, I think they should have full rights restored. If they can't be trusted, either don't let them go or execute them. Otherwise it's just punitive and makes it harder for them to be able to get out of criminal circles and bad cycles. They served their time and paid their "debt".

Riots and burning random stuff isn't acceptable. Targeting Fire and EMS for what? Innocent cops that denounce this are also on the chopping block. It's been a bad week and getting worse.

 

[Seirende]

Plus there's all the extra training and teaching. Psychology classes you get and dealing with psych calls etc.

She asked them "At least 15% of our calls are psych. Do you really want the certificate holder without the Psychology background to run them?

I took Intro to Psych and Developmental Psych. Wouldn't say that gave me a psychology background. Plus we didn't learn anything about dealing with mental health crises.

 

[ffemt8978]

Can someone explain physics to me.

1. Why are you supposed to accelerate into a curve.

2. Why does a gurnry become more likely to flip while raised? Why isn't the probability directly correlated to height rather than exponentially like I think I remember reading?

Does anyone have that one gurney flipping diagram about various forces on it at different angles and heights?

You don't accelerate going into a curve unless you want to wreck. You accelerate in the apex of the curve, which helps increase your down force and traction as you exit.

As far as the gurney flipping, it has to do with the center of gravity being higher. This is the same reason big trucks have to take curves slower than cars. Imagine if you will a bowling pin. Stand it upright and push on the widest part of the pin to tey and knock it over. Now stand the pin upside down and push on the widest part again. The pin will fall over easier.

 

[CCCSD]

See? This is a big part of the reason why there is such a disconnect between police and much of the public these days.

The people who attacked LE and looted and burned buildings weren't peaceful protestors. Those aren't the people being talked about here.

Just shut up and do what I say!! I'm the boss! I'll arrest peaceful people if I want to!! We are the only thing keeping you safe and protecting your freedoms <by using violence against and arresting peaceful protestors>!!!

Sorry, but that approach is BS and it isn't working anymore.

When you’ve worked it, then you will understand. The question as to why was answered. Don’t want to get moved on? Then leave when told.

Next time you’re working on a patient, I’m hoping the crowd starts to tell YOU what to do and how to do it. But please, since LE is “BS“ In their methods, don’t call us anymore to help you. We wouldn’t want to cause you angst. I’m more than happy to let some EMS crew figure it out than risk getting reported for using approved and legal tactics to help them, because, you know, jack booted thugs and all that.

 

[Carlos Danger]

When you’ve worked it, then you will understand. The question as to why was answered. Don’t want to get moved on? Then leave when told.

Next time you’re working on a patient, I’m hoping the crowd starts to tell YOU what to do and how to do it. But please, since LE is “BS“ In their methods, don’t call us anymore to help you. We wouldn’t want to cause you angst. I’m more than happy to let some EMS crew figure it out than risk getting reported for using approved and legal tactics to help them, because, you know, jack booted thugs and all that.

"Don't want to get beaten and arrested for peacefully protesting in public? Then leave the public space when we tell you, even if you aren't doing anything wrong at all". Like it or not, that's what people hear when you say things like "Don't want to get moved on? Then leave when told".

I can not understand why you (and seemingly most other LEO's) take any suggestion that some things could or should be done differently so personally. I can't think of any other profession where criticizing any aspect of it or any specific members of it elicits such a vehement and emotional response. Pointing out that there are many problems with the healthcare system does not evoke passionate rebuttals from doctors. Condemning an obvious act of malpractice by an individual physician doesn't result in many other physicians blindly defending the act of malpractice and replying with some version of "If you don't like it, don't go to the doctor!" or "we don't write the protocols or the recommendations, we just carry them out!".

We can and often do talk about systemic problems with the military, the healthcare system, the pharmaceutical industry, fire departments, the legislatures, schools, the energy industry, the legal profession, and on and on. Everyone agrees that most institutions in our society can use a lot of work in at least some ways.

But policing? Nope. Completely off-limits to any type of criticism at all. Never mind the enormous power that police have over the very lives of the public; never mind the dire consequences that citizens suffer from mistakes and misjudgments made by police. Despite the importance of all that: NOT_ALLOWED_TO_QUESTION_EVER.

In one of your comments you referenced the importance of the Rule of Law. I agree with you that the Rule of Law is critical to a properly functioning society. The problem is that in order for that to work, people have to respect the law. In order for people to respect the law, the laws have to be reasonable, have a clear benefit to society, and infringe only minimally on individual liberty.

You can't just make any law you want and just shrug your shoulders and say "sorry, rule of law" when questioned. You can't enforce laws any way you want and say "sorry, just enforcing the rule of law" when questioned. I mean you can, but that's exactly how you get people to stop respecting the rule of law. That's how you generate momentum for fringe groups like BLM and Antifa and the boogaloo movement and the growing anarchist wing of the libertarian culture. It's also how you get confidence in police among average citizens falling nearly every year.

But by all means, go ahead and dismiss the critics as just entitled lefty brat millennials who never learned to respect authority. Double down on the same approach that got us here and we'll see how things go.