Spice and Bath Salts

[CMillican]

I've been doing a lot of research into spice (k2, spice, legal bud) and these bath salts that kids are doing. Has anyone experienced extreme cases of things going wrong with a patient that has ingested these things? If I do get an extreme case, what's my best course of Rx (bls)? I'm very worried because the county im going to work in, these things are major problems. I've heard of kids as young as 12 years old doing it. I mean kids think that since people are selling it, it's harmless.

If you can share the pt. vitals so i can see if there is a trend I could follow

 

[CMillican]

Sorry, wrong thread, can an admin move this to EMS talk please?

 

[medicRob]

I've been doing a lot of research into spice (k2, spice, legal bud) and these bath salts that kids are doing. Has anyone experienced extreme cases of things going wrong with a patient that has ingested these things? If I do get an extreme case, what's my best course of Rx (bls)? I'm very worried because the county im going to work in, these things are major problems. I've heard of kids as young as 12 years old doing it. I mean kids think that since people are selling it, it's harmless.

If you can share the pt. vitals so i can see if there is a trend I could follow

Spice (JWH-016 and JWH-018) are synthetic cannabinoids, that are according to lab tests 3x as powerful as cannabis.

Effects you may note:

Increased heart rate, Nausea/vomiting, HTN, headaches.


Bath salts as they are called or (MDPV 3,4-methylenedioxypyrovalerone) is not really a bath salt, it is just sold as such to avoid the Federal Analogue act, just as mephedrone and methylone are sold as "Pond Cleaner and Plant Food".

All of these compounds are known as research chems, there are thousands of them... you haven't begun to see the half of it.

MDPV, BK-MDMA, 2C-i halo, 2C-t-7, 4-OH-DIPT, 4-OH-MIPT, 5-MeO-DMT, 5-MeO-DIPT, 2,4,6-trimethoxyphenythalamine (TMA-6), 5-IAI, Methcathinone (CAT), Propylhexedrine(aka Levo-metamfetamine), and tons more. When one becomes scheduled, another replaces it. They can be purchased online or at any head shop.. RCs and entheogenical bioderivatives are here to stay.

MDPV (sold as Bath Salts and Pond Cleaner) is a norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor with properties similar to that of Molly (3,4-methylenedioxy-methamphetamine and methamphetamine).. These drugs act on the sympathetic nervous system resulting in Tachycardia, Pupil dilation, paranoia, and possible psychosis.

The patients you will come across who have ingested MDPV will more closely resemble an individual in meth psychosis. These drugs act primarily by releasing large amounts of dopamine (The pleasure reward chemical) resulting in a high potential for redosing and dependency.

The effects of these 3,4-methylenedioxy-ring substituted pyrovalerone compounds typically last anywhere from 2 - 7 hours depending on a variety of factors including metabolism, dose taken, and whether or not the indvidiual has redosed.

Symptoms can include:

Tachycardia, hypertension, pupil dilation, insomnia, grinding of the teeth (bruxism), headache, increased body temp (NOTE THIS), nausea, digestive problems, kidney pain, dizziness, tinnitus (rare), agitation, hallucination and/or delusion /c general lack of reality testing, and in some cases breathing difficulty.

Treat these patients as you would an individual under the influence of amphetamines.

----

My background in chemistry has allowed me a special insight into the designer drug scene and as such, I keep up with all of these substances regularly to act as a contact point for emergency medical providers in my medical center with regard to their effects, presentations, etc.

For all of you noticing an increased volume of calls due to the ingestion of these various substances that wish to get with your medical director and service directors to come up with protocols and in-services, feel free to contact me via PM, and I will provide a detailed write up and explanation of the latest designer chems along with several resources you can provide to your directors/officials for protocol writing and in-servicing of employees.

 

[FreezerStL]

Thanks for the info medicRob ^_^

There is a pretty nice article over at JEMS about this stuff...
http://www.jems.com/article/news/synthetic-drugs-sending-thousa

 

[ffemt8978]

Moved to appropriate forum

 

[subliminal1284]

Im not sure about the bath salts but I wouldnt worry too much about the synthetic cannabis, people who consume cannabis even in large amounts at a time very rarely have any serious immediate life threatening effects, I would be more worried about alcohol poisoning than someone overdosing on cannabis.

With that said all that you could really do for that as a basic or a paramedic even is put them on O2 and transport.

 

[mc400]

I have had a recent surge in Spice related calls. After smoking the usually get an elevated HR, sudden onset of anxiety and nausea. BP usually runs Hyper but has seen some Hypo but most likely due to severe vomiting....Users tent to say it makes them spin, feel anxious and hallucinate. IV, 02, Zofran, ALS monitoring is about what you can do, fluid bolus as well.

 

[mc400]

Ah reads the above posts and see what I wrote weas already said and said much better lol.

 

[enjoynz]

I hadn't heard about the above products be abused by kids.
Although I did learn something new a short time ago.

Vanilla Essence

My husband works at a general store and they are not allowed to sell kids more than one bottle of vanilla essence at a time.
Kids are sculling bottles of the stuff because of the alcohol contant in it.
I googled the product and found out that imitation vanilla essence has a 35% alcohol content.
Know wonder they are purchasing it, to get a buzz.:glare:

Enjoynz

 

[Sandog]

Im not sure about the bath salts but I wouldnt worry too much about the synthetic cannabis, people who consume cannabis even in large amounts at a time very rarely have any serious immediate life threatening effects, I would be more worried about alcohol poisoning than someone overdosing on cannabis.

With that said all that you could really do for that as a basic or a paramedic even is put them on O2 and transport.

As a synthetic cannabis, and since the product has not been tested in clinical trials, the ADME, and toxicology of this product is not well known. Side effects can be very different than that of cannabis, without lab data, who knows? Synthetic does not equate to identical; I would take a less cavalier approach to this new trend...

 

[281mustang]

Im not sure about the bath salts but I wouldnt worry too much about the synthetic cannabis, people who consume cannabis even in large amounts at a time very rarely have any serious immediate life threatening effects, I would be more worried about alcohol poisoning than someone overdosing on cannabis.

With that said all that you could really do for that as a basic or a paramedic even is put them on O2 and transport.

It's impossible to overdose on cannabis, pot is one of the few substances that can't be overdosed on.

Synthetic cannaboids are cannaboids soley in the sense they have pot-like effects, comparing them to actual marijuana is apples to oranges.

 

[Sandog]

It's impossible to overdose on cannabis, pot is one of the few substances that can't be overdosed on.

Hmm, check out Paracelsus

"All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."

 

[Asimurk]

It's impossible to overdose on cannabis, pot is one of the few substances that can't be overdosed on.

Synthetic cannaboids are cannaboids soley in the sense they have pot-like effects, comparing them to actual marijuana is apples to oranges.

"One estimate of THC's LD50 for humans indicates that about 1,500 pounds (680 kg) of cannabis would have to be smoked within 14 minutes." - WikiPedia

Impossible, eh? We'll just see about that.

 

[medicRob]

I am heading out to my ACNP Review this morning, so I don't really have time to post right now, but expect a post from me later today explaining the biochemistry of the synthetic cannabinoids (3x more potent than THC btw) and their various reactions with the body, as well as refute whomever it was that said they werent that worried about synthetic cannabinoids.

Any biochemist will tell you there are drugs all around you. As I have said above, there are thousands of recreational research chems and entheogenical bioderivatives. Hell, one can walk into a local wal-mart with $10 and come out with a product that can contain morphine in varying ranges (NO, I WILL NOT BE SHARING THAT, DONT PM). One can walk into a walgreens, buy a certain type of inhaler (not vicks), put the cotton in water, drink it and have a methamphetamine type high.. Designers/Research/BioEntheo's are not going away.

Also, please don't generalize the chems so much. Someone making a claim as to all synthetic cannabinoids having the same effect and danger risk is like me saying that all derivative narcotics of the papaver somniferum are the same thing, or worse that all narcotic drugs are the same thing.

Please specify which one you are referring too:

JWH-015, JWH-018, JWH-073, JWH-081, JWH-133, JWH-200, JWH-250,
JWH-398, CP 47,497, CP 55,244, CP 55,940, HU-210, HU-211, or WIN 55,212-2

--
One risk is hallucination-related suicides, etc.

I present:
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...ynthetic-drug-ban-can-Indianola-teen-s-legacy

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Ce...Males_Associated_with_Acute_Marijuana_Use.pdf

I'll be back later with some posts, maybe even some chemical comparisons on the topic.

 

[samiam]

Hmm, check out Paracelsus

Oxygen Toxicity aka Hyperoxia

Water Toxicity aka Hyper-Hydration

Orange Toxicity aka Too much d-limonene (yes I am aware that most people dont eat the peel)

Car Toxicity aka SPLAT!

Life Hurts Get a Helmet

 

[cruiseforever]

As a synthetic cannabis, and since the product has not been tested in clinical trials, the ADME, and toxicology of this product is not well known. Side effects can be very different than that of cannabis, without lab data, who knows? Synthetic does not equate to identical; I would take a less cavalier approach to this new trend...

Death in MN from the stuff.

http://www.startribune.com/local/north/118182584.html

 

[medicRob]

As a synthetic cannabis, and since the product has not been tested in clinical trials, the ADME, and toxicology of this product is not well known. Side effects can be very different than that of cannabis, without lab data, who knows? Synthetic does not equate to identical; I would take a less cavalier approach to this new trend...

There is lab data. I have it. I'm on my way back now, will share shortly.

 

[reaper]

I have seen many cases with K2, since it was developed by me. They very widely and can range from minor to fatel.

Never underestimate a designer drug.

 

[jwilbz03]

I have seen many cases with K2, since it was developed by me. They very widely and can range from minor to fatel.

Never underestimate a designer drug.

You developed the drug? These synthetic drugs have become a huge issue. I have even had a friend who was twenty two years old die from bath salts a few weeks ago. I have seen countless kids come to the ER with elevated heart rates, emesis, etc. Most of them think they are going to die when they are high off these drugs, however a common trend of these "bad highs" seem to be from mixing these drugs and/or overdosing. They think it's safe to take as much or any at all because it is sold publicly. Complete BS. . .

 

[reaper]

No I didn't develop it. It was developed in the town by me.

Most states have now started outlawing their sales in stores. So it cuts down a little on them.