September 11th - Fighting Back

[MMiz]

I recently watched a television show/movie United 93. It's about the hijacked plane that crashed into PA.

It got me thinking as to what I'd do if I were in that situation. My blood was literally boiling as I watched as people took so long to act. Why didn't the passengers fight back sooner? Why didn't they do this? That? The other?

Of course hindsight is always great, but I wonder what I'd do in that situation. I went out last night thinking that I should know karate. I mean I'm certified in CPR/First Aid, and a thousand other things, but why don't I know how to defend myself?

Any thoughts on including a defensive EMS topic / class as part of a mandated curriculum?

 

[ffemt8978]

You should already know the answer to this question:

http://www.dt4ems.net

(There you go, Kip. )

Seriously, though, this is an area that I feel we (as in EMS) in general gloss over with our "Scene Safety/BSI" statements. It's well and good not to bring the ambulance into Dodge until the gunfight is over, but sometimes Dodge comes to the back of your rig...usually when you least expect it.

Having been in law enforcement for a few years, I was certified in PPCT. While their ojbectives are different, some of the techniques have crossed over and been very useful in EMS.

 

[Tincanfireman]

For years, we were instructed to keep calm if faced with a hijack situation; give the people what they wanted (usually a forum to speak) and everything would be all right. In the days since 9/11, there has been a definitive shift in the paradigm. Witness Richard Reed for example; he was the infamous "shoe bomber" who couldn't light a match and was seen trying to light his tennis shoe by another passenger. If you remember the pictures and read any of the accounts by passengers on the flight, this knucklehead was nearly beaten to death by the other passengers on the plane before it landed. There have been other, less widely publicized incidents as well. Most, if not all, have had the same outcome; i.e; perp beaten to a bloody mess and found trussed like a Thanksgiving turkey when the plane landed. I believe the days of quietly sitting in our seats while jihadists scream and beat their chests at the passengers are over. People feel more empowered thanks to the heroes of Flight 93, and their legacy and memory lives on in each of us as we take our seats in those flying cigar tubes.

 

[shorthairedpunk]

theres no need to mandate such a course, if somebody wants it, theyll take it, if you force it on them they will blow it off and lower the overal level of quality offered to the people who are interested.

 

[DT4EMS]

SHP Glad to see ya Bruddah!!!

I think everyone knows how I feel about the subject. I think it should be a part of EMT school period. LEO have to take 40 hours of 1st responder.... and they will tell you straight up "It aint' my job". But if they or their buddy were injured it would come in handy.

Same for EMS. Make escape training a part of the Core class. Then no matter what it is just standard.

As far as Flight 93.... I watched it, hard to keep from choking up. Pissed me off too. We need to remember how we felt about that day. Forever.

 

[Stevo]

if anyone here really belives that 19 oswalds who flunked flight school with box cutters could even scratch the world's best and brightest superpower i honestly feel sorry for them

to additionally feel like you need to defend yourself is falling right into the neocon's entrapment

~S~

 

[Chimpie]

Huh?

Are you saying that the hijackers had no effect on this country?
Are you also saying that we don't need to worry about defending ourselves?

 

[MMiz]

if anyone here really belives that 19 oswalds who flunked flight school with box cutters could even scratch the world's best and brightest superpower i honestly feel sorry for them

to additionally feel like you need to defend yourself is falling right into the neocon's entrapment

~S~

See, I completely disagree.

It's amazing how even one person can create complete and utter devastation. I agree that it's horrible to live in fear, but it's foolish to be not learn from the past. I don't live in fear. I've flown on an airplane four times in the past month.

What worried me is what worries many sociologists. Generally people don't feel compelled to act when in large groups. I'm sure there is a fancy name, which I should know as a certified Sociology teacher, but generally people assume that others will act, or take comfort in their inaction.

A couple of years ago the young ER doctor sitting next to me on airplane didn't act while a guy had an MI in the back of the plane. They asked for volunteers, but no one got up. Only after I volunteered did a nurse volunteer. It wasn't until I got back to my seat, AED in lap, that he identified himself.

I always call 911 if I witness a big accident on a rural road / expressway. People in the car with me always seems amazed that I'd call. To me it seems like common sense.

Truthfully, I don't know if I would have volunteered on Sept. 11. I'm not sure anyone can say what they would or wouldn't have done. Life prior to September 11th seems like a distant memory in some respects. It has literally changed how we handle ourselves on airplanes. It was even in the news today!

I'll save you the rant. I just deleted a 500 word rant here on why I hate airports and how there is a distinct line between security and just stupidity. Unfortunately we live in a dynamic world, and this crap happens.

I just want to learn from the past, and do what I can do help the future. You don't see me carrying a gun, taser, mace, or even a whistle. But will this be one of those things that in 25 years we say I can't believe EMS were trained in self defense! I think so.

Edit: You will find fewer people more patriotic than myself, but it's Steve's ideology that makes us hated by every damn country. We're even losing Canada!

 

[Stevo]

but it's Steve's ideology that makes us hated by every damn country. We're even losing Canada!

moi?

you claim to be a trained sociologist Matt, yet fail to recognize made for tv propaganda?

the list of similar blather via the criminals running this country has sucked in quite the contingent of sunshine patriots whom are merely the tools of a fascist cabal

and you blame me, my ideology, my RIGHT to question , my desire to investigate as the reason America is hated by the world?

that's a good one Matt

that's a Coulter/Hannity/Limbaugh-ism if i ever read one

i suppose you think freedom is riding a Harley too eh?

Are you saying that the hijackers had no effect on this country?

quite the contray, it was the current regimes trifecta Chimpie

~S~

 

[Firechic]

and you blame me, my ideology, my RIGHT to question , my desire to investigate as the reason America is hated by the world?

I didn't get that from your comment. It was a sarcastic blurb to say the least.

the list of similar blather via the criminals running this country

that's a Coulter/Hannity/Limbaugh-ism if i ever read one

I can only guess what end of the political spectrum you subscribe to....^_^

 

[DT4EMS]

WOW!............

I am really not sure how the topic of a persons right or belief in self-defense turned into a political debate.

Let us not forget why we chose EMTlife. It is because of each other. We can agree to disagree about politics, remembering politics and religeon can cuase hard feelings on a forum.

Let's not allow this forum to become like others where people take too much to heart.

 

[Stevo]

I can only guess what end of the political spectrum you subscribe to....

a minority these days Firechic, the ones who like truth and not bs

there's quite a lot of evidence toward that flight being shot down

but none of it is going to see the light of day while these liars are in power

meanwhile, i make no excuses for calling out the made for tv jingoist movie of the decade for what it is

~S~

 

[MMiz]

moi?

you claim to be a trained sociologist Matt, yet fail to recognize made for tv propaganda?

First, I never claimed to be a sociologist, in fact my drift was that I should know more about sociology. I've taken a couple of Sociology classes, and there's a general concept that people tend not to take action in groups. It's unfortunate that I don't have my books with me, and my google skills aren't up to par, or I'd give you the name of the guy who thought it all up.

Steve, more importantly, people aren't objective, and with that it mind one must believe that most of what we hear and see is propaganda. Heck, I spent half the movie reflecting on the conspiracy theories I've read on 9/11.

My idea wasn't based on the facts of the movie, but instead I questioned if I would have acted if I was put in a position as those people presented in the movie.


the list of similar blather via the criminals running this country has sucked in quite the contingent of sunshine patriots whom are merely the tools of a fascist cabal

and you blame me, my ideology, my RIGHT to question , my desire to investigate as the reason America is hated by the world?

Of course not. Soldiers, my family included, have fought for for decades to protect our civil liberties. In fact I'd wish more people would talk, even those people with ideas I feel are crazy. I always tell my students that I don't care what they protest or become activists for, but I just like seeing them being passionate about something. This world and country needs more passionate people.

I've been a member of the ACLU and EFF for years, and I wish more people would protest the Bush adminstrations calculated deterioration of our civil liberties.

that's a good one Matt

that's a Coulter/Hannity/Limbaugh-ism if i ever read one

Read above? I can't stand Coulter's BS, I get sick watching Hannity, and Limbaugh is just... Limbaugh.

i suppose you think freedom is riding a Harley too eh?

Freedom is riding whatever the I want to ride, as long as it doesn't interfere, impede, or harm others.

quite the contray, it was the current regimes trifecta Chimpie

~S~

Steve, my comment was based on your statement:

world's best and brightest superpower

Best at what? Brightest? I'm a teacher, and it's clear that a vast majority of our students don't receive the education they deserve. The vocal white minority has, and will receive a good education, but what about the vast majority of students who are in failing schools and failing families?

The world can't stand our damn cocky attitude. I think being humble is the key to life. I'd rather be known for what I did instead of what I said.

 

[MariaCatEMT]

Sigh.......

 

[Stevo]

The world can't stand our damn cocky attitude. I think being humble is the key to life. I'd rather be known for what I did instead of what I said.

well i have to agree with you there Matt

and America is #1, at being delusional lately. Go here for some revealing facts

go and teach your students the truth Matt, some of us appreciate the premium it is at in these dark days of our history


peace out
~S~

 

[Jon]

Wow... is it just me, or have things gotten really serious around here in the last 2 weeks?

 

[Ridryder911]

I've been a member of the ACLU and EFF
.

One would actually admit or brag about this? ... One might want to read the historical accounts of the true organization philosophy and mission statement are. I have, as well as support any organization that will fight ACLU.

R/r 911