Self Defense for EMS

[Ridryder911]

We're not talking about drugs that require a slow IV push. They're sedatives that can be pushed quickly IM.

Your kidding right? IM medications usually take at the least 30 minutes to an hour for circulation. That is why I chuckle when I see immediate results on television shows. Paralytics can be administered <30 seconds, especially in a violent situation, IV form.

Again, I think we are loosing site of the objective of violent patients, is to remove one self away from the patient and not even engage in behavior with them.

R/r 911

 

[firecoins]

We're not talking about drugs that require a slow IV push. They're sedatives that can be pushed quickly IM.

You want to get away from a violent patient. You dont want to charge him with open needle in the hopes you get an opportunity to give him an IM. What if you end up missing and giving yourself the IM? When I was a kid and afraid of needles, I moved while a nurse was giving me a shot and she got herself. Imagine a violent patient.


Self defense includeds not just protecting yourself and partner but also the ability to avoid legal repurcussions. Using a weapon on a patient or some other agressor carries alot of legal baggage with it and I don't just mean a lawsuit. You better be prepared to sit in a jail cell. I can't tell you how many EMT's think carry a knife foe self defense. They are going to stab a violent patient. That is going to look real nice in front of a jury. EMT stabs (shoots, tazers, pepper srays) patient.

 

[jmaccauley]

What I'm hearing is that fear of liability is the reason for putting your safety in the hands of others. I don't know if conventional defensive tools are the answer, or even practical, but I do know that there are many misconceptions expressed here about defense of yourself or others in your care. A patient suffering excited delirium doesn't are that you are the "good guys" and not cops. A drug abuser is an opportunist who would slit your throat and steal your rig because it's a means to an end. There seems to be a dangerous mindset here, with some, that says the danger will be reduced if you just play fair. Weapons don't have to be firearms. They can be tools, instruments or even just having a plan. Is this an overly simple concept and am I missing something?

 

[firecoins]

What I'm hearing is that fear of liability is the reason for putting your safety in the hands of others. I don't know if conventional defensive tools are the answer, or even practical, but I do know that there are many misconceptions expressed here about defense of yourself or others in your care. A patient suffering excited delirium doesn't are that you are the "good guys" and not cops. A drug abuser is an opportunist who would slit your throat and steal your rig because it's a means to an end. There seems to be a dangerous mindset here, with some, that says the danger will be reduced if you just play fair. Weapons don't have to be firearms. They can be tools, instruments or even just having a plan. Is this an overly simple concept and am I missing something?

Its not simply liability. Its criminal liability. You have to explain how beating a hypoglycemic combative patient with an O2 tank was necessary for your safety. We aren't simply civilians. The media and overzealous prosecuters may take aim at our "self defense" Police officers have a legal support system that we lack.

 

[jmaccauley]

So, do you think that you couldn't explain how you had to fight for your life from an attack by a crazed (regardless of why he is crazed) attacker? Self defense is not a priviledge only afforded to civilians. However, you are right that you must be able to articulate your justification. And frankly, if the fear of getting into trouble keeps you from protecting yourself, maybe dealing with unstable patients is a bad career choice.

I'm not arguing your reasoning, I'm just trying to understand the thought process. Try to forget for a moment that I am a cop and that you have issues with law enforcement, when you reply.

Just as an aside to this, EMS has the same legal support system that police and firefighters have. Don't believe for a second that the media or prosecutors have a soft spot for police who use force.

 

[certguy]

This is a sad sign of the times , we have some wanting to carry weapons , some saying we have to be politically correct and be nice when we're in danger , and others more concerned about legal ramifications if we do protect ourselves . What do we teach the rookies coming in , keeping in mind you don't always know you're walking into a danger zone ? They're going to be so confused it could cost them an injury or worse .

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE ! YOU HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO DEFEND YOURSELF EVEN IN EMS ! THOUGH A PT. MAY BE MENTALLY ALTERED , THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAT ON US !

We 're talking a lot about scene safety , but I'm amazed at the niavity of some of you who should know better . Let's all get on the same page here .

 

[firecoins]

Just as an aside to this, EMS has the same legal support system that police and firefighters have. Don't believe for a second that the media or prosecutors have a soft spot for police who use force.

No we do Not have the legal support system cops have. This has nothing to do with prosecutors having a soft spot for any such group either. Police officer have a very strong union in the PBA. The PBA hires lawyers for their cops who use their weapons in the line of duty. We do not have a union who does any such thing. Unless your employer gets behind your actions, your on your own. Your employer may choose to distance themselves from your actions. Any action you take in your defense must be justified. Prosecutors are going to ask why you couldn't get away and call for more help.

 

[jmaccauley]

No we do Not have the legal support system cops have. This has nothing to do with prosecutors having a soft spot for any such group either. Police officer have a very strong union in the PBA. The PBA hires lawyers for their cops who use their weapons in the line of duty. We do not have a union who does any such thing. Unless your employer gets behind your actions, your on your own. Your employer may choose to distance themselves from your actions. Any action you take in your defense must be justified. Prosecutors are going to ask why you couldn't get away and call for more help.

Guess you chose the wrong career. Be careful out there.

As I said, don't be afraid to protect yourself. Who protects you when you screw up a patient? You're not a Good Samaritan.

 

[medic8613]

Its not simply liability. Its criminal liability. You have to explain how beating a hypoglycemic combative patient with an O2 tank was necessary for your safety. We aren't simply civilians. The media and overzealous prosecuters may take aim at our "self defense" Police officers have a legal support system that we lack.

A person's motive for assaulting someone without provocation is irrelevant. Who cares if they are hypoglycemic or just a nut job looking for a fight. Sorry, but I will leave checking blood sugar on someone trying to kill me to someone else who doesn't care if they get injured or killed. Everyone (and I do mean everyone) has a right to defend themselves if attacked whether they are providing medical care or pumping gas for a living.

We are more at risk of assault than most other professions, and should not have to worry about the legal ramifications when someone is coming at us with the intent to hurt us. If you stop to debate the legal consequences of your actions, you will end up in the back of an ambulance, but this time the tube is headed towards your mouth.

Maybe many of the people here haven't been assaulted before and don't know what people think about as someone comes at them. "Will I go to jail for defending myself?" isn't one of the things you (should) think about.

I read and hear a lot about how ambulances are going to be painted differently to increase visibility, fancy new seatbelts that let you move and treat patients while secured, and other such safety measures, but nothing is being done to cut down on injuries due to assault beyond instructing people to request police and leave the scene fast.

 

[firecoins]

We are more at risk of assault than most other professions, and should not have to worry about the legal ramifications when someone is coming at us with the intent to hurt us. If you stop to debate the legal consequences of your actions, you will end up in the back of an ambulance, but this time the tube is headed towards your mouth.
.

If you have enough time to contemplate what you would do if you get assaulted, than you have enough time to consider the legal consequenses of those actions. Since your posting on the topic, you have enough time. If you succesful in defending yourself and you end in jail. You will definately have time to reflect on the lack of planning you put into it.

Your ability to defend yourself must include what happens after you do so. You must be able to demonstrate your life was in danger or risk going to prison. Successful self defense not only saves your life but keeps you out of legal trouble.

Currently in the state of New York, your ability as a normal citizen to defend your self is limited. Your only able to use as much force that would stop the attack. Since this highly open to interpretation, you could easily find yourself in hotwater. You probably need to check the exact wording of the law in your state and nearby states you find yourself in.

 

[medic8613]

If you have enough time to contemplate what you would do if you get assaulted, than you have enough time to consider the legal consequenses of those actions. Since your posting on the topic, you have enough time. If you succesful in defending yourself and you end in jail. You will definately have time to reflect on the lack of planning you put into it.

I'M NOT BEING ASSAULTED AT THIS MOMENT. If people won't defend themselves because of the legal consequences, they should then focus their thought on how nice their department funeral will be. Will they use the same truck you work in every day to carry the casket, or will it be the one from station 3 thats kept around in case a truck breaks down? Does your department have mourning bands lying around, or will they have to order them? I hope so.

If I was being attacked at this moment I would be reaching for my knife and maglite, not debating whether it would be justified to defend myself. I would rather be alive and defending myself in court than in the back of my ambulance being driven to the cemetery. What people don't seem to understand is that self defense is 100% legal. The words "Emergency Medical Services" on your bade offers you no protection from dangerous people.

 

[firecoins]

I'M NOT BEING ASSAULTED AT THIS MOMENT. If people won't defend themselves because of the legal consequences, they should then focus their thought on how nice their department funeral will be. Will they use the same truck you work in every day to carry the casket, or will it be the one from station 3 thats kept around in case a truck breaks down? Does your department have mourning bands lying around, or will they have to order them? I hope so.

If I was being attacked at this moment I would be reaching for my knife and maglite, not debating whether it would be justified to defend myself. I would rather be alive and defending myself in court than in the back of my ambulance being driven to the cemetery. What people don't seem to understand is that self defense is 100% legal. The words "Emergency Medical Services" on your bade offers you no protection from dangerous people.

Its called planning ahead. That is what your doing even in your posts. Already in your post your reaching for knife or a mag flash light. It is illegal in the state of New York to use excessive force in self defense. How do you define excessive force? Knifing an unarmed assailant to death might fall into that category.

 

[firecoins]

Here is link to an article to a man who fired a gun in self defense. He found a man burglarizing his home. The burglar was in his son's room so he shot the burglar. He legally bought his gun but had not successfully registered it in NY. So he was arrested and served jail time.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Sep-05-Tue-2006/opinion/9342433.html

the state of New York has a duty to retreat law. It requires you to retreat from a violent situation. If you pull out a knife or a mag light and use it, you violate this law. Florida and 14 other states have done away with that law and given you the right to stand your ground.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/07/us/07shoot.html

Self defense is far from 100% legal. READ UP!!! So you won't find your self behind bars.

 

[DT4EMS]

OK......... A guy breaks into your house, slips on your kitchen floor sues and WINS......... it doesn't make it right, but it happens.

Now, self-defense is accepted in EMS, it just isn't implemented as much because people are fearful of the fallout "if" they do use it.

Now, I have personally talked to numerous EMS folks (during my 12 plus years of teaching DT4EMS) who had been assualted while on the job. When you talk to a guy who had his back broken, or a female medic stabbed multiple times ,both without warning, you begin to wonder when things will change.

I have tried to spread the word the best I can. Awareness is the key. If you are aware the potential for violence is there, on every call, you act a little differrent.

Train AHEAD of time. Do physical and mental role playing. In our "Six steps of self-defense" Step #1 Is not being on an unsafe scene. The next 5 steps are trying to get you to Step #1.

Again, assault in EMS accounted for 52% of injuries. MORE than back injuries or exposure to infectious diseases!!!!!!!!!!!! Still very, very few agencies train.

Firecoins, you are correct, documentation and legal actions prior, during and after the incident are important. That is what the "4" battle areas we train for........ the battle of the mind, the battle on the street, the battle of the courtroom and the battle of the media! If you are not prepared for all four, your training is lacking.

Folks, do a little research. It does happen. EMS providers have been shot, stabbed and beaten with all types of weapons. Not being on an unsafe scene is the best. But what happens when the "safe scene" goes unsafe? Have you practiced how to get out?

Have you rehearsed verbal skills so you and your partner are on the same page?

Have you talked with your partner about a "Code word or phrase" so they know to lock it up (brakes) so you can jump out?

I say it again......................

It's not important to you........ until it's important to you.

With the utmost respect,

Kip

 

[JJR512]

Anyone who is concerned about the legal trouble he/she will be in after anything happens while performing his/her duties as an EMS provider should consider getting personal liability insurance. One company that specializes in liability insurance for healthcare workers, and has been mentioned here several times in the past, is HPSO (http://www.hpso.com/). Remember--as has been pointed out--your employer's or organization's insurance is primarily interested in protecting your employer or organization, not you, as they would like you to think. Insurance plans from HPSO run only $100-150 per year.

An HPSO policy will cover you if you are assaulted while providing EMS. It will protect you in claims of personal injury made against you. It will provide legal representation for you. There is so much more, you should really check out their policy descriptions.

 

[TheDoll]

i have been interested in learning a martial art that would help me with self defense tactics as an ems provider. i was wondering if some of you would post which form(s) of martial art you would suggest and why. also, please be specific. if you post an abbreviation, i will probably not know what you are talking about. ftr, i'm not tiny. i'm 5'9" and fairly strong, but not huge or anything.

 

[BBFDMedic28]

You people underestimate the power of an O2 bottle!

 

[certguy]

GUYS , UNLESS TIMES HAVE RADICALLY CHANGED , IN MY EXPERIENCE , THE COPS ARE USUALLY ON OUR SIDE . WITH PROPER DOCUMENTATION , THE BAD GUY WILL BE HARD PRESSED TO SHOW WHY YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE DEFENDED YOURSELF WHEN HE ATTACKED YOU . THIS SAID , GET OVER YOUR HANGUPS OR IT'LL GET YOU HURT OR WORSE .

Folks working in SOCAL may remember the Mission Bay Hospital shooting that occurred about 1989 . A guy went off the deep end after losing his dad to open heart surgery , walked into the ER and started shooting , killing 1 RN , wounding the DR and 2 EMT's . There but by the grace of god I was in that ER exactly 24 hours before dropping off a pt. and probably would've been shot too if he would've came in 1 day earlier . I didn't know that RN well , but I do remember she was a sweetheart and a great RN . I think I would've done my best to protect the others ( and myself ) , not stand there indecisively at the thought of being sued . I had a wife and son to come home to . ( still do )

Doll ,

The best martial art I can recommend for EMS is an art that is eclectic , that is , doesn't follow just one discipline . That is what I belted in , a style called AAm - KA - JUTSU . I know they have a school in Iowa , but I don't know about your area . Many schools now teach mixed martial arts disciplines . They combine soft and hard styles . Soft styles are ones that use your opponents energy against them ( judo , jujitsu , aikido , etc. ) . Hard styles are force on force striking arts ( karate , kung fu , etc. ) Combine the 2 and you have a provider with a knowledge of pressure points , takedowns , pain compliance , grappling and groundfighting , and rolls and falls as well as good , old - fashioned thrash -n- bash punches and kicks if all else fails . This is the kind of training that will give you many more options in how to handle aggressive pts. safely . It's worked well for me . I used to teach until a knee replacement from a work comp injury ( bus driving , not EMS ) sidelined me . I loved it ! Here are some tips to finding a good school ; 1. Reputable instructors only . If they give you a story you can't check out , shy away . 2. Do your homework , look for the type of style you want and sit in on a couple classes first as a visitor . Watch how the instructor interacts with the students . 3. Shy away from contracts . Some schools will try to trap a student into contracts lasting 6 - 12 months . Opt for monthly payments , that way if you don't like it , you're not out extra money . Hope this helps .

God Bless .

Craig

 

[certguy]

Let me clear up something that may confuse some of you . pressure points for self defense are different than for bleeding cotrol . Anywhere 2 or more nerves meet is a pressure point . Apply pressure and you get pain that can be used to get a combative pt. to comply w/o causing damage . Striking these points can produce a TEMPORARY dead arm or dead leg sensation . These are considered brother - in - law techniques . Most families have one , the bone head brother in law who gets drunk and causes a problem . If you kick his butt , it may cause problems with the rest of the family sooooooo , you use these techniques to persuade him it's time to go . With most people these work well , but with a druggie , they may not . Easy sites to use are in the arms , legs , collar bones , under the nose , and behind the ears . I recommend you learn first how to use them though . These are nice guy techniques . Next step up are joint locks , with the intent of causing enough pain to make them comply w/o damage , but these have the potential to cause damage if done improperly . Again , learn from an instructor if you want to add these to your arsenal . Both are considered pain compliance techniques . For Ems , shy away from grappling only schools . These are fine for one on one situations , but if there's more than one bad guy , you're in big trouble . If you tie up with one , the others will be thumping on you in the meantime . There are ways to deal with multiple attacker situations , but the best is to NOT BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE , though sometimes it's not an option .

 

[eggshen]

As far as pressure points go they have their place but are not the be all end all to sort out a scuffle in or out of the ambulance. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I have a great article regarding this and will try to find the link.

Anyway, while we're at it do any of your agencies have (for lack of a better phrase) a use of force policy?

Egg