Self Defense for EMS

[medic8613]

I was on calls where I had to defend myself and / or my partner . My and my partner's safety are first and formost . I have a martial arts background . I have a first degree black belt in AAM - KA - JUTSU . If you are interested in martial arts , study an ecletric art that uses both soft and hard styles , you'll have more options to work with ( joint locks , take downs , and pressure points in addition to good old fashioned thrash and bash ) I used to carry a streamlite ( less bulky than the mag ) , a kubaton , a minimaglite ( can be used the same way ) , and a folding Kershaw knife as last ditch ( never had to use it thank god ) The best defense is good size - up skills and situation awarness , though at times you can get caught by surprize .

It seems that when I said "firearms", people zeroed in on this, and knew that I was joking about swords and hand grenades. What about "less-lethal" weapons such as batons, "stun guns", Tasers, defense sprays (OC, etc.), and other small less-lethal weapons. Martial arts is large step towards making the job safer, but I have seen some very small EMTs and medics.

The training (at least I got) in EMT class and medic school for keeping the scene safe without police on scene was inadequate. It was 10 minutes, and they said "always keep an exit open, here is some basic body language to read, stand to the side of the door, look up the stairwell, and good luck...oh, and don't expect your service to pay for kevlar." And that was it. Martial arts is a great idea, but how many services would pay for their staff to get trained? I know none of the ones I have been at would dream if it. Self defense/martial arts classes can be quite expensive on an EMT's salary.

 

[Katie]

I was on calls where I had to defend myself and / or my partner . My and my partner's safety are first and formost . I have a martial arts background . I have a first degree black belt in AAM - KA - JUTSU . If you are interested in martial arts , study an ecletric art that uses both soft and hard styles , you'll have more options to work with ( joint locks , take downs , and pressure points in addition to good old fashioned thrash and bash ) I used to carry a streamlite ( less bulky than the mag ) , a kubaton , a minimaglite ( can be used the same way ) , and a folding Kershaw knife as last ditch ( never had to use it thank god ) The best defense is good size - up skills and situation awarness , though at times you can get caught by surprize .

Martial arts is an excellent idea. I also have a martial arts background, and if nothing else it can help give peace of mind. Getting both the hard and soft styles is also a must to being balanced.

Martial arts is a great idea, but how many services would pay for their staff to get trained? I know none of the ones I have been at would dream if it. Self defense/martial arts classes can be quite expensive on an EMT's salary.

It might be worth looking into to see if there are instructors in the area that would be willing to teach the people at the company as a volunteer or for a reduced price. We did a similar thing at my school where several of us volunteered to give lessons to groups.

 

[firecoins]

It seems that when I said "firearms", people zeroed in on this, and knew that I was joking about swords and hand grenades. What about "less-lethal" weapons such as batons, "stun guns", Tasers, defense sprays (OC, etc.), and other small less-lethal weapons. Martial arts is large step towards making the job safer, but I have seen some very small EMTs and medics.

The training (at least I got) in EMT class and medic school for keeping the scene safe without police on scene was inadequate. It was 10 minutes, and they said "always keep an exit open, here is some basic body language to read, stand to the side of the door, look up the stairwell, and good luck...oh, and don't expect your service to pay for kevlar." And that was it. Martial arts is a great idea, but how many services would pay for their staff to get trained? I know none of the ones I have been at would dream if it. Self defense/martial arts classes can be quite expensive on an EMT's salary.

You should pay for martial arts. It is something that keeps you physically fit for life. Something worth investing in. Brazilian Juijitsu is designed for smaller people to defeat larger people.

Guns are great. Shoot the combative diabetic. That won't get you arrested and charged with attempted murder.

Batons are just as bad as guns. There is nothing worse than a videotape of EMTs/Medics beating their patients into a pulp. Rodney King comes to mind. What was that tape of a Chicago medic beating a homless man. Add a baton on to that. Even if it legit self defense, it will not look like that.

Pepper spray will work against you and your partner as well. Try spraying that stuff in a small space. Gets everyone. No just the person your aiming for.

Look at all the publicity tazers have been getting in Canada.

 

[medic8613]

You should pay for martial arts. It is something that keeps you physically fit for life.

If they pay us to attend an in-service on billing procedure, when we have a billing department, and we have nothing to do with billing ever, they should put up at least some money for useful training, like self defense.

(by we, I mean myself and those employed by the people who employ me, not EMS in general)

 

[firecoins]

If they pay us to attend an in-service on billing procedure, when we have a billing department, and we have nothing to do with billing ever, they should put up at least some money for useful training, like self defense.

(by we, I mean myself and those employed by the people who employ me, not EMS in general)

true enough.

 

[Hastings]

Have you ever had a "safe" scene go sour on you? What about those areas where law enforcement is 30-45 minutes away? We shouldn't be entering a scene unless it's safe, but not every scene stays safe. In addition, most law enforcement will NOT transport in the back of an ambulance to assist with a violent patient. They may or may not follow the ambulance, but there could be a couple of minutes that you're on your own with a violent patient. What do you do then?

I'm not saying EMS should be armed, but I am truly distressed that you appear to have an unrealistic view scene safety. It's attitudes like that that get EMS workers hurt.

Though, I do have to remember that location is to be taken into account. I'm lucky here, as every service in the area has a fire engine dispatched on every EMS call, and the police on every scene that could potentially be dangerous. And they always arrive before EMS. So I'm lucky in that manner.

 

[certguy]

I had a friend who was nearly killed by a pcp'er in the back of her rig . He grabbed her by the throat so hard that it displaced 3 of her cervical vertabrae and two years down the road she went out on permanent disability due to severe headaches . Her partner wouldn't pull over and help her . He left her on her own till they got to the hospital . I had a major problem with that . I was the dispatcher on duty that night and told him repeatedly to pull over , let me know where they were , and I'd get help to them . The fact that he refused caused a lot of hard feelings . Him and I had words later .

A couple years later , I was faced with almost the same situation . Our pt. was turned over to us by FD , was in full c - spine ( assult pt. ) , we were loaded and about to go when I felt the weight shift in the rig , heard the pt. laughing , and looked in my mirror to see my 180 lb. partner flying into the ceiling of the rig like a rag doll ! Dianna's call was on my mind , but I called for help , got back there and helped my partner . We both got hurt , but we both went home that night . I tried pressure points and joint locks , neither worked and the fight was on . Did I do what was needed to protect us ? ABSOLUTELY !

A major rule of EMS safety ; NEVER LEAVE YOUR PARTNER HANGING , YOU'VE GOT HIS/HER BACK , THEY'VE GOT YOURS .

Though the public expects us to be nice to the gorilla that's trying to tear our heads off , that's not always an option .

EMS personnel should have at least basic self defense training . The potential for a call to become dangerous to a crew is always there even in a hospital setting . All personnel should be prepared . If your employer won't pay for training , ( mine didn't ) do it yourself .

Consider it an investment in your future . In addition to self defense , martial arts training is good conditioning and good for stress relief . Don't worry about size , with good training and technique , it's irrelevant .

THE BIGGER THEY ARE , THE HARDER THEY HIT THE FLOOR ! Trust me , I know . OUCH !

 

[DT4EMS]

Though the public expects us to be nice to the gorilla that's trying to tear our heads off , that's not always an option .

EMS personnel should have at least basic self defense training . The potential for a call to become dangerous to a crew is always there even in a hospital setting . All personnel should be prepared . If your employer won't pay for training , ( mine didn't ) do it yourself .

That is what I have said for years. Did you know in most basic police academy courses, the recruit is trained to the first responder level? The recruit is also given a min. of 40 hours of defensive tactics.

I have always found those numbers ironic and have tried many different ways to get the basic ems training changed. Escape training(force on force) is very different than training for fight. I have also said for years..... "training for self-defense is easy, training to fight is hard".

Regardless of what class, seminar or book you use to train.... without regular practice it is useless.

 

[certguy]

Let me clear something up . My last post wasn't as dark as it seems . My partner was hurt and cornered by the jump seat otherwise , if we could've backed out and let him go , we would've . The option wasn't there . When I tried pressure points , the guy smiled at me , when I got him in a wrist lock that would have any normal person screaming and complying , he laughed and caught me with a left - handed punch that knocked me the length of the bench seat and nearly knocked me out . There was one cop a block away doing paperwork , and I sent a passerby to get him , then he joined the fray . Amazingly , by the time the calvary got there , my partner was able to talk the guy down and agree to be transported . This is the only time I've even heard of talking a pcp'er down , let alone seeing it happen , so we transported with a cop in the back , and a small army following us . I can't speak for my partner , but I was scared for my life , this guy had no pain threshold at all . This is a classic example of a call rapidly going south when you least expect it , but working as a team , we got through it without any serious injuries to us or the pt. . Had it come down to him or us , I believe I would've done what I had to and faced the consequences .

 

[BossyCow]

Our protocols do not allow any weapons to be transported in our rigs. Period. LEO's if on scene must search all pt's for weapons prior to transport and I even had an ER nurse refuse admittance to a pt with a history of assault on her staff until she had spoken personally to the officer and was convinced that the patient had been thorougly searched.

First of all, a gun has no place in the back of a rig. Have any of you ever had a gun go off in a vehicle? Set aside the ricochet factor and just think of the noise. A friend of mine accidently shot his car door while I was in the passenger seat during my mis-spent youth. I couldn't hear well for several days. As far as a baton, or a taser, I see incredible potential for mis-use and accidents. There is not a lot of room in the back of our rigs to use one effectively. I can't imagine trying to struggle to find and use a weapon of any kind in cramped quarters like that.

On scenes, if a patient is volatile, EMS has no business in there without LEO's present. Part of initial size up should be scene safety. We are well within our rights to refuse to treat a violent patient. Let the guys with the badges and guns be the heavies. The idea of causing bodily harm to a pt. in order to treat them is ludicrous. Self defense is avoiding being hurt not winning the fight.

 

[medic8613]

Have any of you ever had a gun go off in a vehicle? Set aside the ricochet factor and just think of the noise.

The noise? Really? I would trade the ability to hear well for a couple of days for my life any day. I don't think noise is a major issue here. The LEOs don't seem to mind. Never seen a cop put in ear plugs before opening fire...

 

[thowle]

I agree with what most people are saying about not needing to carry a weapon... we are NOT the police, and if we are responding to a dangerous situation, or a situation that has the potential to turn threatening then we need to request the police, and wait for them.

However, having a specified assigned bullet-proof, and stab-resistant vest that we can/shall wear would be a great idea, so that just in-case we do get ourselves into a situation, we have armor to protect ourselves.

Leave the weapons to the police, and let them handle the situations that arise.

 

[medic8613]

I agree with what most people are saying about not needing to carry a weapon... we are NOT the police, and if we are responding to a dangerous situation, or a situation that has the potential to turn threatening then we need to request the police, and wait for them.

However, having a specified assigned bullet-proof, and stab-resistant vest that we can/shall wear would be a great idea, so that just in-case we do get ourselves into a situation, we have armor to protect ourselves.

Leave the weapons to the police, and let them handle the situations that arise.

Nobody said we have to or should be or act like the police, and every situation we go into has the potential to turn violent or dangerous. The police can only be around on calls where we foresee violence or the nature of the call is violent to begin with. I have been on calls where no police were available to assist us because they had better things to do. I know for a fact that 2 police vehicles were parked outside a coffee shop. We passed them roughly 2 minutes before we called for assistance.

 

[jmaccauley]

I would like to comment on a few things here. Without identifying the poster (because I don't want to go back and read all over again) there are 2 points that were made. 1.) Weapons should not be carried because they could be used against you. Well, thats why they are carried; to use so you can protect yourself from those who might "use them against you." Not a good reason as far as I can see. 2.) You shouldn't need to defend yourself because that's what the cops are for. Well, hopefully you will never be assaulted or injured by a mutant patient, but if that day comes and PD is not standing between you and him, what then? Don't put your safety in the hands of others. be pro active and learn to protect yourself. If the Department won't pay for training, it's of little consequence when you're career and maybe life are threatened.
You guys and gals see way too much on the job to be naive about being perceived as less of a threat because you're not the police.

 

[VentMedic]

No! to weapons carried by EMTs and Paramedics on an ambulance unless they are the medical members that are part of a SWAT team.

Owning a gun, knowing when to shoot a gun and how, why or where takes as much if not more skill and practice than some of the medical things we do. Who is going to monitor your competency, either shooting or psychological? There is no "fit to carry" eval for a citizen's concealed weapons permit. A concealed weapons permit only shows you have attended a class and shot off a few "satisfactory" rounds a range. My mother and her condo pals (ages 80+) got their weapons permit many years ago in Miami.

There are going to be many EMTs and Paramedics who will want to carry a weapon that should not be allowed to touch one. In fact, most EMTs and Paramedics I know who insist on the right to carry weapons are just the sort of EMTs and Paramedics who shouldn't. They cannot communicate effectively. Many are hotheaded and perceive every patient encounter is an adversarial relationship.

If you are carrying a weapon and must do a prison or jail call, an observant inmate will see you leave your weapon at the security box. That will put you and the guard escorting you in great danger in your truck. You will be an easy mark for even an inexperienced criminal. It doesn't have to be an experienced prison inmate, any street wise teenager or suicidal person could probably figure out where your weapon is concealed by your body language and make a grab for it.

You need situational awareness, verbal de-escalation skills, and a sense of when to get out. Remember the Three R's - Retreat, Radio and Reassess. It doesn't hurt to know a few defensive moves that DT4EMS mentions in his videos to make that retreat easier. Anything else such as the short range sprays or tasers may make you look like the aggressor.

Any yes, working in Miami, I've had my share of violent patients. My partner would give the distress signal to dispatch on his portable while opening up the back door offering an exit to the "patient". While the patient was momentarily distracted, I could hopefully scramble out another exit. Of course we also were aware of common items that could be used as "weapons" in the ambulance as a last resort and be easier to defend their use in court if needed. Most of the time we would just notify the police that we would like them to be nearby. Our dispatchers were also great for getting PD involved on any call that sounded like it could go bad.

 

[Nocturnatrix]

bvm as a weapon

I was taught in my emt class that a bvm could be used to block attacks and be used as a weapon so that if they were taken to court on it they can state that they were trying to ventilate the patient.... i don't believe this but many people have been taught this.

 

[Hastings]

I was taught in my emt class that a bvm could be used to block attacks and be used as a weapon so that if they were taken to court on it they can state that they were trying to ventilate the patient.... i don't believe this but many people have been taught this.

Something I'm surprised hasn't come up yet is that ALS DOES have "weapons". In fact, many that will pacify the most violent of patients almost instantly.

Drugs.

The medics around here carry plenty of drugs that can be legally used to either paralyze or sedate a violent patient.

 

[ffemt8978]

The medics around here carry plenty of drugs that can be legally used to either paralyze or sedate a violent patient.

Provided you have a safe way to administer the drugs...but what do you do if you don't?

 

[certguy]

Hi Bossy ,
I'm with you that guns , tasers , pepper spray , etc. has no place on a rig , however , for many years now , there's been a need for better defensive training for EMS personnel . As I've shown in my previous posts , you can't always see the danger in your initial size up , and the fact is that if something does go wrong , it takes time to get the calvary to you . I don't think there's an EMT or Medic out there who will intentionally hurt a pt. to treat them , but if that pt. comes at you with the intent to hurt or kill you , is this still a pt. , or an immenent threat that for the safety of you and your crew , must be dealt with if you can't simply evac out of the area ? Sometimes folks lose sight of the fact that the pt. isn't always an innocent , compliant party and the very person you're trying to help may turn on you . Our job description doesn't say punching bag , pin cushion , or target . Just as the pt. deserves the best medical care , those of us who care for them deserve to come home safely .

 

[Hastings]

Provided you have a safe way to administer the drugs...but what do you do if you don't?

We're not talking about drugs that require a slow IV push. They're sedatives that can be pushed quickly IM.

I'm not discounting the need for general knowledge of physical pinning methods. I've certainly been trained those. Drugs are simply the long term self-defense solution that can be used following those methods so that harmful weapons and/or long term physical restraint is not necessary.

Look, you should never be in a large proximity situation that you can't get out of. I think the situations that have been discussed here are all situations in which the patient has become violent while in close proximity to the paramedic. And in that case, I believe the only appropriate and realistic method of restraining the patient is an initial physical response, followed by an injection of a sedative. I just don't see any realistic alternatives to physical restrain and chemicals in regards to self-defense "weapons".