Section 12s

[roberthay]

I would like an explanation. Why do EMTs believe they have the authority to involuntarily abduct and transport someone to an ER against their will for so-called "mental illness". In my state, the courts and statue presume every adult competent, even those who are committed to a mental hospital. So why do the mental health "professionals" and EMTs believe they have any authority over a competent adult? What is laughable is that the citizens of my state put physician-assisted suicide on the ballot..that's okay? But someone with a so-called mental illness will be thrown into a padded prison for just having a passive thought of doing it themselves.

 

[DesertMedic66]

In my area those patients are placed on a 5150 hold which is a 72 hour hold. Pretty much it is a legal document that takes away that persons right to deny transportation and sign out from the hospital AMA.

It's not kidnapping or abducting if it is legal.

 

[roberthay]

In my area those patients are placed on a 5150 hold which is a 72 hour hold. Pretty much it is a legal document that takes away that persons right to deny transportation and sign out from the hospital AMA.

It's not kidnapping or abducting if it is legal.

Sure it is. I don't care about a worthless Section 12 (in your state, 5150)document. I have a constitutional right to privacy under the Massachusetts Constitution. The laws are invalid. I am currently appealing my previous commitment on the grounds that the danger to self clause of MGL c.123 violates the state constitution and must be struck down.

 

[roberthay]

Sure it is. I don't care about a worthless Section 12 (in your state, 5150)document. I have a constitutional right to privacy under the Massachusetts Constitution. The laws are invalid. I am currently appealing my previous commitment on the grounds that the danger to self clause of MGL c.123 violates the state constitution and must be struck down.

I was once admitted for 72 hours. On the form under symptoms of mental illness, was the following statements: "no dx. refusing to take meds and unable to be controlled by family". No joke.

EDIT: This occurred at the age of 18 in 2010

 

[luke_31]

Sure it is. I don't care about a worthless Section 12 (in your state, 5150)document. I have a constitutional right to privacy under the Massachusetts Constitution. The laws are invalid. I am currently appealing my previous commitment on the grounds that the danger to self clause of MGL c.123 violates the state constitution and must be struck down.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but being arguementative with EMS professionals online isn't the way to solve the issue you have. It sounds like you are finding a good recourse for your beliefs in challenging your commitment in the courts. However I would suggest not being confrontational with EMS professionals when you are placed on a section 12 for your safety and theirs.

 

[JPINFV]

I would like an explanation. Why do EMTs believe they have the authority to involuntarily abduct and transport someone to an ER against their will for so-called "mental illness".

EMTs in general don't. They instead (at least in the case of California... maybe someone from Massachusetts can pipe in) call someone else who does have the authority under the law to decide that someone needs emergency psychatric care to prevent themselves from harming themselves or others in the immediate time frame.

In my state, the courts and statue presume every adult competent, even those who are committed to a mental hospital. So why do the mental health "professionals" and EMTs believe they have any authority over a competent adult?

The answer is in your title. Section 12 of some Florida code (in California it's the Welfare and Institutions code specifically).

What is laughable is that the citizens of my state put physician-assisted suicide on the ballot..that's okay? But someone with a so-called mental illness will be thrown into a padded prison for just having a passive thought of doing it themselves.

...because suicide due to a long term physical illness (say... ALS/"Lou Gehrig's Disease) and because of a mental illness aren't in the same category. While, yes, schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disease is every bit as "chronic" as ALS, they aren't in the same category because of the specifics of mental illness.

Also, the vast majority of mental hospitals aren't "padded prisons," and the people who ended up restrained for temporary periods of time in the padded rooms (which is really a bed with restraints) are people who need it for being an immediate danger to themselves or staff.

 

[roberthay]

I'm sorry you feel that way, but being arguementative with EMS professionals online isn't the way to solve the issue you have. It sounds like you are finding a good recourse for your beliefs in challenging your commitment in the courts. However I would suggest not being confrontational with EMS professionals when you are placed on a section 12 for your safety and theirs.

Don't be confrontational with EMS? Lol
Most of them in my area are between the ages of 22 to 27. Don't even know what their doing. I wait for them to violate any procedure, regulation, or law. Then immediately upon arriving at the hospital, I ask to speak with the patient advocate and file a complaint against them with the Department of Public Health, Division of Health Care Quality Assurance.

 

[adamjh3]

I would like an explanation. Why do EMTs believe they have the authority to involuntarily abduct and transport someone to an ER against their will for so-called "mental illness". In my state, the courts and statue presume every adult competent, even those who are committed to a mental hospital. So why do the mental health "professionals" and EMTs believe they have any authority over a competent adult? What is laughable is that the citizens of my state put physician-assisted suicide on the ballot..that's okay? But someone with a so-called mental illness will be thrown into a padded prison for just having a passive thought of doing it themselves.

It seems like you have some very personal involvement with the topic, and more than a little contempt for the healthcare system.

If someone expresses an intent to harm themselves, why should that not be investigated?

What do you mean by "so-called mental illness?"

And usually it requires more than a passive though for a hold to be carried through past initial assessment.

There are also other circumstances that constitute an involuntary psychiatric evaluation such as someone not being able to provide their own basic life needs because of a mental illness.

But basically, there is no "believing" in the authority to initiate a hold when it's a written law. That becomes a fact. Like gravity.

 

[JPINFV]

Sure it is. I don't care about a worthless Section 12 (in your state, 5150)document. I have a constitutional right to privacy under the Massachusetts Constitution. The laws are invalid. I am currently appealing my previous commitment on the grounds that the danger to self clause of MGL c.123 violates the state constitution and must be struck down.

Could you go into said reasoning further by chance?

 

[JPINFV]

I was once admitted for 72 hours. On the form under symptoms of mental illness, was the following statements: "no dx. refusing to take meds and unable to be controlled by family". No joke.

EDIT: This occurred at the age of 18 in 2010

Without knowing more, I would agree that shouldn't be enough for a hold. However, as the cliche goes, there's 2 sides and then the truth.

 

[roberthay]

EMTs in general don't. They instead (at least in the case of California... maybe someone from Massachusetts can pipe in) call someone else who does have the authority under the law to decide that someone needs emergency psychatric care to prevent themselves from harming themselves or others in the immediate time frame.
The answer is in your title. Section 12 of some Florida code (in California it's the Welfare and Institutions code specifically).

...because suicide due to a long term physical illness (say... ALS/"Lou Gehrig's Disease) and because of a mental illness aren't in the same category. While, yes, schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disease is every bit as "chronic" as ALS, they aren't in the same category because of the specifics of mental illness.

Also, the vast majority of mental hospitals aren't "padded prisons," and the people who ended up restrained for temporary periods of time in the padded rooms (which is really a bed with restraints) are people who need it for being an immediate danger to themselves or staff.

I am referring to Section 12 of Chapter 123 of Massachusetts General Laws. You are right. EMTs do not have the authority to commit someone. Usually their partners in crime, the cops, sign a Section 12. EMTs are still responsible for the abductions that they do.

 

[JPINFV]

Don't be confrontational with EMS? Lol
Most of them in my area are between the ages of 22 to 27. Don't even know what their doing. I wait for them to violate any procedure, regulation, or law. Then immediately upon arriving at the hospital, I ask to speak with the patient advocate and file a complaint against them with the Department of Public Health, Division of Health Care Quality Assurance.

...and how's that working out for you?

 

[JPINFV]

I am referring to Section 12 of Chapter 123 of Massachusetts General Laws. You are right. EMTs do not have the authority to commit someone. Usually their partners in crime, the cops, sign a Section 12. EMTs are still responsible for the abductions that they do.

Once the Section 12 is filled out, it's no longer an abduction. Even if invalid, the EMS crew isn't going to be faulted for independently verifying something they have no power to make or break anyways.

 

[roberthay]

...and how's that working out for you?

Great. Thank you for asking. DPH usually requires that the specific EMS implement a "Corrective Action Plan" or order the particular EMT involved to attend a training program on how to appropriately handle the "mentally ill".

 

[MMiz]

If you don't agree with the law then challenge it in court. I'm not sure that anyone here is qualified to argue the intricacies of constitutional law with you.

 

[roberthay]

Once the Section 12 is filled out, it's no longer an abduction. Even if invalid, the EMS crew isn't going to be faulted for independently verifying something they have no power to make or break anyways.

The driver and other EMT crew members have the ability to say NO to the cop. Then it would be the cop's responsibility to transport the alleged dangerous person.

 

[JPINFV]

Great. Thank you for asking. DPH usually requires that the specific EMS implement a "Corrective Action Plan" or order the particular EMT involved to attend a training program on how to appropriately handle the "mentally ill".

So... what's your batting percentage for "corrective action plans" vs "complaints filed." I'm not going to say that there aren't EMTs who need to get their head screwed on straight when dealing with the mentally ill (a combination of lack of education and lack of caring for some EMTs), but you're painting with an awfully broad brush.

 

[ffemt8978]

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXVII/Chapter123/Section12

If an examination is not possible because of the emergency nature of the case and because of the refusal of the person to consent to such examination, the physician, qualified psychologist, qualified psychiatric nurse mental health clinical specialist or licensed independent clinical social worker on the basis of the facts and circumstances may determine that hospitalization is necessary and may apply therefore. In an emergency situation, if a physician, qualified psychologist, qualified psychiatric nurse mental health clinical specialist or licensed independent clinical social worker is not available, a police officer, who believes that failure to hospitalize a person would create a likelihood of serious harm by reason of mental illness may restrain such person and apply for the hospitalization of such person for a 3-day period at a public facility or a private facility authorized for such purpose by the department.

I doubt the EMT's did it on their own. The law states who has the authority to do it, and the most likely scenario is that the EMT's were acting under the orders of somebody who was authorized to do it.

 

[rwik123]

Great. Thank you for asking. DPH usually requires that the specific EMS implement a "Corrective Action Plan" or order the particular EMT involved to attend a training program on how to appropriately handle the "mentally ill".

Is ranting on an EMS board making you feel better?

 

[roberthay]

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXVII/Chapter123/Section12


I doubt the EMT's did it on their own. The law states who has the authority to do it, and the most likely scenario is that the EMT's were acting under the orders of somebody who was authorized to do it.

Does it mention EMTs or ambulances there? No it doesn't. Also, in another section of Chapter 123 regarding liability, EMTs are not listed. Only cops, medical and mental health professionals are not liable for restraining,transporting, and applying for the admission of the individual if they acted in good faith.