Responders run over patient

[EMSLaw]

I disagree. They were operating an ambulance without showing due regard. That is negligent.

The question is whether the "reasonably prudent" ambulance driver would check the front of the rig before pulling out of the bay. Since the "reasonably prudent" ambulance driver is, by definition, perfect and far more prudent than anyone who actually drives an ambulance, he doubtless would check what was right in front of him before he pulled out.

So, yes, off the cuff, knowing only the facts in the news article, I'd say there's a good case that there was some negligence here. The ambulance had a duty not to run patients over, they violated it, their violation was the proximate cause of the damages, and obviously, the guy who got run over was damaged. That's not to say it's a sure winner, but there certainly seems to be a case.

 

[VentMedic]

This is a double header for St. Pete FD this week since:
Police: Cocaine found at St. Petersburg fire station

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1038888.ece
​

Times Staff Writer
In Print: Friday, September 25, 2009

ST. PETERSBURG — Last week a firefighter found something in a fire station washing machine that has left St. Petersburg Fire Rescue feeling very unclean:

Cocaine.

Now the city's police officers are conducting a criminal investigation into the city's firefighters.

Police and fire officials would not release any other details. They would not say what role drug testing could have in the investigation or discuss what actions could be taken against any firefighter linked to the drug. Firefighters from all over the city rotate in and out of the station.

The question is "were the FFs tested" from this news article and the other. Right now the union has been saying it is a violation of their rights.

 

[Hal9000]

Holy crap, that sounds worse than an episode of Nurse Jackie.

 

[46Young]

This is a double header for St. Pete FD this week since:
Police: Cocaine found at St. Petersburg fire station

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1038888.ece
​

Times Staff Writer
In Print: Friday, September 25, 2009





The question is "were the FFs tested" from this news article and the other. Right now the union has been saying it is a violation of their rights.

the FF that discovered the coke had the integrity to report it promptly (commendable, speaks highly of his/her caliber), instead of going to the person who had it and keeping things quiet.

There are most likely policies as to what conditions need to be met before one can be mandated to be drug screened. Apparently this situation doesn't fit that criteria. Doesn't make it right, but that's what it sounds like. If I was the offender, I'd probably seek loopholes to avoid any discipline/termination. Perhaps this incident will force a change in policy for the better.

 

[rescue99]

the FF that discovered the coke had the integrity to report it promptly (commendable, speaks highly of his/her caliber), instead of going to the person who had it and keeping things quiet.

There are most likely policies as to what conditions need to be met before one can be mandated to be drug screened. Apparently this situation doesn't fit that criteria. Doesn't make it right, but that's what it sounds like. If I was the offender, I'd probably seek loopholes to avoid any discipline/termination. Perhaps this incident will force a change in policy for the better.

Yeah, like run to the nearest drug treatment program and do a voluntary admit. Then, have a pow-wow with the Chief. Privacy rights will keep the mongers under control. Actions speak louder than words in this situation probably.

 

[46Young]

Regarding the OP, I took this quote from a thread of the same subject on a different forum :

First - I feel sorry for the 2 jakes who hit this guy. They are most likely in a world of hurt with guilt. They deserve our sympathy and support.

I feel sorry for the family of the guy who was injured. They too are suffering - even if its a know problem for years.

Lastly - I feel little sympathy for the individual who was hit. While there could be exceptional cases (mentally incompentent etc), I personally see this is a case of personal responsibility. You get drunk and become a problem for everyone else. It's his actions that are the root cause of the pain of the everyone else. Does that mean he deseves to die - no. It means that he must accept the consequences of his actions, which may include death.

Now - can we learn something from this? Yep. For some, it could be a wake up call to ensure the apron is clear before leaving. For others, its an example of why to walk the rig out when leaving. Where I am at, we are more likely to have deer on our apron than a drunk so its really not an issue to us. For an urban environment, it may be a real concern. All can agree that if there is a simple, easy to do item to prevent this, then we should do it. Perhaps not for the drunk, but for ourselves and our mental health. I personally would not want to live with the idea my actions killed another.

+1 on this, although there aren't any deer running around my first due as far as I know.

 

[46Young]

http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-new...ers-cleared-after-running-over-homeless-man/#

Thoughts?

 

[triemal04]

http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-new...ers-cleared-after-running-over-homeless-man/#

Thoughts?

Oh oh! It's a cover-up! That dirty stinking union and those evil firefighters are trying to hide the truth and pass the blame! :lol:

Come on...you know someone is going to say something along those lines.

 

[46Young]

Oh oh! It's a cover-up! That dirty stinking union and those evil firefighters are trying to hide the truth and pass the blame! :lol:

Come on...you know someone is going to say something along those lines.

Or say nothing at all. It's funny when you compare threads reacting to negative press about dual role fire/EMS to that of a single role provider. The fire thread gets way more traffic from the FD lynch mob getting stiff over another opportunity to so some bashing.

Actually, I was expecting some to discount the fact that the man deliberately staged himself out of sight (he WAS lying down, after all, not standing IFO the doors) and admitted to suicidal ideations not being relevant to the case. 100% blame for the crew, no matter what! Apparently it was a factor, since the crew was cleared from wrongdoing by the LAW (not union influence per se).

I'm not saying that the crew wasn't negligent to some degree in the matter, but the victim did deliberately place himself in harms way and presumably out of sight by laying down. For that reason, I don't feel bad for the fact that he got himself hurt. He made the decision to lay there at that exact spot for an admittedly specific reason. Darwinism. Just like that former EMS employee who got crushed to death by the bay door. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[triemal04]

Or say nothing at all. It's funny when you compare threads reacting to negative press about dual role fire/EMS to that of a single role provider. The fire thread gets way more traffic from the FD lynch mob getting stiff over another opportunity to so some bashing.

Actually, I was expecting some to discount the fact that the man deliberately staged himself out of sight (he WAS lying down, after all, not standing IFO the doors) and admitted to suicidal ideations not being relevant to the case. 100% blame for the crew, no matter what! Apparently it was a factor, since the crew was cleared from wrongdoing by the LAW (not union influence per se).

Naw, it makes perfect sence that that happens; blind hatred, prejudice and ignorance tend to make people act that way.

I am honestly curious why the guy was laying there; was he actually suicidal (I can think of better ways to go than that) or trying to get help, or was he really just completely drunk? Actually...guess that's not a question; .46...wow. Even for a chronic alcoholic that's high. It's odd though; the ambulance left because someone had called in a report of a man down, and the pt was laying there because he wanted help...granted he was drunk, but laying on the apron waiting instead of letting people know you are there makes little sence. Who knows.

 

[BLSBoy]

It's odd though; the ambulance left because someone had called in a report of a man down, and the pt was laying there because he wanted help...granted he was drunk, but laying on the apron waiting instead of letting people know you are there makes little sence. Who knows.

Did you read the article, or just ignore it?
He wanted to DIE. Not get help.
He stated he knew where Rescue 5 was located, called for help, then laid down in front of the bay.

 

[triemal04]

Did you read the article, or just ignore it?
He wanted to DIE. Not get help.
He stated he knew where Rescue 5 was located, called for help, then laid down in front of the bay.

Why yes, yes I did. Apparently YOU did NOT. Nowhere in the linked article does it say the homeless guy was the 911 caller, and nowhere does it say he's even admitted to having tried to kill himself; in fact he claims it wasn't suicide. When you make statements like that you only make yourself look stupid.

 

[BLSBoy]

Why yes, yes I did. Apparently YOU did NOT. Nowhere in the linked article does it say the homeless guy was the 911 caller, and nowhere does it say he's even admitted to having tried to kill himself; in fact he claims it wasn't suicide. When you make statements like that you only make yourself look stupid.

The report cautions that the evidence doesn't prove, but rather "raises the possibility," that Lenox may have intentionally placed himself in danger.

Lenox had a 0.46 blood-alcohol level at the time, police said, nearly six times the level at which a driver of a vehicle would be presumed legally impaired.

Two witnesses told police Lenox was on his back in front of the garage bay door but propped up on his right elbow — and one of them said he saw Lennox like that after the garage door opened. "From the position Lenox had been witnessed in," the report said, "he was not passed out unconscious."

Two witnesses told police that Lenox seemed suicidal before the incident. A friend of his told police he was despondent that he couldn't help get his girlfriend out of jail, had given up on getting sober and often talked of taking his own life when he drank.

But when police went to the hospital to talk to Lenox, he denied a suicide attempt. He said he went to the station to get help for his high blood pressure but firefighters "ran him over."

When the police asked him why he hadn't gone to a doorway instead of the garage bays, the report said, Lenox said he chose that particular bay because he knew that's where the paramedic truck was parked. "He stated that he knew the rescue truck came out of the third door and that was why he laid down there," wrote Officer Mike Jockers.

The report noted that there was no record that Lenox had problems with blood pressure.

He has hx of suicidal ideations, especially when he drinks, he knew where the Rescue would pull out of, he propped himself up just outside of the door, and then when he failed, he fabricated a story.

 

[VentMedic]

He has hx of suicidal ideations, especially when he drinks, he knew where the Rescue would pull out of, he propped himself up just outside of the door, and then when he failed, he fabricated a story.

Most people in Florida also know that a fire station is a place to seek medical help and even a place to safely leave your unwanted babies. There is nothing unusual about someone who has a medical problem or even suicidal idealations to seek out help. You can not always pick your patients and if this had been a suited businessman who stumbled in front of the door while having a heart attack, you would have had a different opinion. As well, if this had been a layperson who ran over the person, those same FFs may have scolded that person severely and may even have wanted criminal charges filed. Afterall, checking around your vehicle is part of the "public safety" message the FDs present at their health fair booths.

 

[triemal04]

He has hx of suicidal ideations, especially when he drinks, he knew where the Rescue would pull out of, he propped himself up just outside of the door, and then when he failed, he fabricated a story.

A history of suicidal ideation? Really? Based on 2 random people saying so? Oh boy... Start thinking a little, m'kay? And while your at it could you point out where it says he was the one to call 911 or show some real proof that he wanted to die?

To be clear though. What I meant originally is that his story doesn't make a lot of sense given where he was (though he was highly intoxicated at the time and probably not thinking clearely). It's possible that he was trying to kill himself. It's also possible that he's a drunken idiot. Unfortunately, unless he admits something, or someone with credible info comes forward this is something that's going to be hard to prove one way or another.

 

[VentMedic]

Quotes from the article:

Two witnesses told police Lenox was on his back in front of the garage bay door but propped up on his right elbow — and one of them said he saw Lennox like that after the garage door opened. "From the position Lenox had been witnessed in," the report said, "he was not passed out unconscious."

Witnesses who did nothing to help the guy or to warn the FFs?

Was one of them who made the phone call and failed to say the guy was in front of the door? Sounds like someone might be back pedaling for not giving all the information to the 911 operator.

Two witnesses told police that Lenox seemed suicidal before the incident. A friend of his told police he was despondent that he couldn't help get his girlfriend out of jail, had given up on getting sober and often talked of taking his own life when he drank.

Seemed? Often talked but had not acted?

But when police went to the hospital to talk to Lenox, he denied a suicide attempt. He said he went to the station to get help for his high blood pressure but firefighters "ran him over."

Patient's statement...
Yes, in Florida people do show up at all hours at the fire stations to have their BP checked.

When the police asked him why he hadn't gone to a doorway instead of the garage bays, the report said, Lenox said he chose that particular bay because he knew that's where the paramedic truck was parked. "He stated that he knew the rescue truck came out of the third door and that was why he laid down there," wrote Officer Mike Jockers.

A paramedic truck with "paramedics"? Not a ladder? Do you think he was seeking help from the paramedics? There might also have been a good chance they would have ignored him if he knocked on the front door. He may have thought they would surely see him in front of the truck. Unfortunately, he thought wrong.

The report noted that there was no record that Lenox had problems with blood pressure.

A lot of people don't know they have BP problems until they become seriously symptomatic or experience the adverse effects such as a CVA.

Also, it would be difficult to track down every ED and clinic visit this person had.

One of the first things I was taught with both the FD and the ambulance service is that there are blind spots on these big trucks and one has to be very careful when pulling out, backing up and taking corners.