reporting police brutality

If nothing else I respect your honesty but I strongly strongly disagree with you.
 
Urbanems said:
I know this isn't the Textbook answer or the morally correct answer. But if you encountered this in real life, I'd probably just keep it to yourself. Unless they literally beat a man to near death for no reason, I would just keep your mouth shut and go on with your business. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but sometimes you gotta pick and choose your fights, and getting an officer fired, and a bunch of media on the PD isn't my thing.
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Ya I am going to have to totally disagree with you. My intention would not be to have them fired but they should be punished and better educated. I am sure you opinion would be different if it was you or a family member in that situation.
 
Urbanems said:
I know this isn't the Textbook answer or the morally correct answer. But if you encountered this in real life, I'd probably just keep it to yourself. Unless they literally beat a man to near death for no reason, I would just keep your mouth shut and go on with your business. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but sometimes you gotta pick and choose your fights, and getting an officer fired, and a bunch of media on the PD isn't my thing.
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Sooo making a sound ethical choice "isn't your thing"?
 
etacalpha said:
I am paramedic student in MO. I have been tasked with the assignment to decide ethically what I would do in the situation that a hypoglycemic person was believed to be intoxicated and the beat with an asp presumably for self defense both before and after being restrained. At the time in this situation the officers are not aware of any medical issue and are overly confident pt is just drunk.

Pt was hit in head several times causing 3 open hematomas as well as in the upper arm and posterior thigh. pt was aggressive and belligerent but is now unresponsive to pain with gurgling respiration after "being subdued".

My question is not of treatment or what decision to make as that is for me to decide but do any of you have any protocols for reporting such an event or any first hand experience of something similar?
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I am going to call BS on this one. You sound like you are trolling.

I am an ex-cop. The ASP is rarely used. Ever hear of a Taser? In reality you would be tased first. The ASP is intended to be used on soft, fatty tissue and thigh, bicep areas are our targets as is the Abdominal cavity.

A strike to the head would be justified if Deadly force was justified.

While I won't justify the actions of any officer when I wasn't present, I will caution you on jumping on the "police brutality" bandwagon prematurely. While there are numerous instances of excessive force - which should be reported - the reality is what the public perceives as "brutality" is really ignorance and the cops are within the law.

You wouldn't want people jumping to conclusions about you, so don't do it for others. If you have FACTS to support your suspicions then report it, otherwise stay out of the way.
 
It's not our jobs in EMS to pass judgement on right or wrong. If you think any pt was assaulted or abused, the correct answer is the follow your agency's policy to report it. All you're doing is reporting it. It is the job the police, the courts or in this case IA to figure out what went on. We are also mandatory reporters and I don't see my obligation to report suspected abuse against a 3 year old or a 30 year old any different.

In most prisons everything is on video and if these officers acted appropriatly they should be quickly cleared.
 
Urbanems said:
I know this isn't the Textbook answer or the morally correct answer. But if you encountered this in real life, I'd probably just keep it to yourself. Unless they literally beat a man to near death for no reason, I would just keep your mouth shut and go on with your business. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but sometimes you gotta pick and choose your fights, and getting an officer fired, and a bunch of media on the PD isn't my thing.
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You are correct. I will not knowingly and unlawfully contribute to a culture of corruption. Wink ad those sdratsab and some day it might be you of one of yours on the receiving end.
 
leoemt said:
While I won't justify the actions of any officer when I wasn't present, I will caution you on jumping on the "police brutality" bandwagon prematurely. While there are numerous instances of excessive force - which should be reported - the reality is what the public perceives as "brutality" is really ignorance and the cops are within the law.

You wouldn't want people jumping to conclusions about you, so don't do it for others. If you have FACTS to support your suspicions then report it, otherwise stay out of the way.
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This is what I was saying...I don't advocate turning a blind eye to abuse because "we're all on the same team", I'm just cautioning against making accusations that you would be unable to support.
Like leoemt said, there is a huge tendency to Monday morning quarterback whenever LE uses any kind of force, and we have basically no more training in identifying acceptable use of force of techniques then the average Joe. Ever read the comments section on a news article about a police shooting?

That being said, if you witness legitimate police abuse, it should be reported according to your department SOGs or state law. That's good patient advocacy, and that officer does not belong on the force
 
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Again I am not asking if this should or should not be reported as I do not need others to define my ethics/ morals. Some of you have been very helpful in posting US code and or state provisions, as well as one personal experience. Thank you in that as I did not know them.
What I am seeking is to know if there are any established procedures already out there for reporting any similar instance and if anyone has personal come across something like this.
 
leoemt said:
I am going to call BS on this one. You sound like you are trolling.

I am an ex-cop. The ASP is rarely used. Ever hear of a Taser? In reality you would be tased first. The ASP is intended to be used on soft, fatty tissue and thigh, bicep areas are our targets as is the Abdominal cavity.

A strike to the head would be justified if Deadly force was justified.

While I won't justify the actions of any officer when I wasn't present, I will caution you on jumping on the "police brutality" bandwagon prematurely. While there are numerous instances of excessive force - which should be reported - the reality is what the public perceives as "brutality" is really ignorance and the cops are within the law.

You wouldn't want people jumping to conclusions about you, so don't do it for others. If you have FACTS to support your suspicions then report it, otherwise stay out of the way.
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It's my understanding that this is a scenario for a class. Regardless, I don't see how asking a question that invites thoughtful discussion would be a bad thing.

My opinion concerning the scenario would be to think carefully about your qualifications and experience when it comes to assessing potential law enforcement brutality.Having a good relationship with many members of L.E. in your response area is good. They could probably shed some light on what happened during the arrest. A knee jerk reaction to report an non-wittnessed abuse would seem would seem to be just that.
 
This is scenario exactly how it was given to me again this is for a class and in no way am I trying to say this is a real scenario I have encountered.

You respond to the scene of a "violent OBS" to find state highway patrol officers and count police apprehending an individual who they say is "Drunk as a skunk". Your pt is a 35 yr old man and about 300lbs. You observe your pt with slurred speech, uncooperative, and acting belligerent to authorities by attempting to punch and kick at them. As they restrain him he exhibits slurred profanities and resist strongly by trying to punch and bite. The police use their "night sticks" and hit the pt in the head, back,and posterior thighs. you ask for assistance to place him on the stretcher and the officers pick up the pt and drop him prone on your stretcher. your pt is now unresponsive to a sternal rub, exhibits unilaterally dilated pupils, and is breathing about 8 times/min with gurgling respiration. your glucometer calculates his blood sugar to be 33 mg/di.
 
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JPINFV posted an example of a real incident. If i was that paramedic I think I would have been a little suspicious of "we had to bash his head in with our batons"...."oh, he isnt breathing? Oops"
 
I would say the answer to the question would be offering a class explaining the effects of hypoglycemia and how it can be mistaken for simple non-compliance.
 
OP, if it's open it isn't a haematoma. It's an impact laceration, usually stellate.

Report abuses of power while under color of authority to the District Attorney's office, Citizens' Review Board, local ACLU, County or City board member, etc.
 
In response to the initial scenario, I would be cautious to report anything that is not clear cut "police brutality." In most areas, cops have minimal medical training if any and can not be expected to immediately differentiate from a distance whether the patient is hypoglycemic, has mental disorders, is ETOH, or is just a bully. I would be willing to bet that most EMTs/Paramedics (myself included) can't easily tell this without assessing the patient. This is even harder when they approach the patient and he attacks them which the initial scenario hinted at when it said the strikes were for self defense. All this talk from mental health professionals about law enforcement needing sensitivity training for mentally ill people goes out the window when the situation becomes violent. What are the police supposed to do, not properly gain compliance of the subject because he might have a mental issue or medical issue? And anyone who has ever been in an intense struggle with a patient can tell you, things do not go as planned and sometimes it is not pretty. As long as a good faith effort was made to keep the situation under control and nobody went crazy on the patient, sometimes that is all you can ask for.

So I would make sure I had all the facts before I took any action. After all, how would you feel if the cops saw a small part of your assessment, or looked at the patient after you treated him, did not understand why you did something, and went to county or state EMS to report you without knowing the facts. If some misconduct genuinely occurred, I would be ethically obliged to report it, however I would be hesitant to damage inter agency relations and someone's career based on conjecture and assumptions without actually seeing something or having more facts.
 
This whole thing does not sound right. The story and scenario has changed since the beginning. I am with LEO on this one.
 
We understand EMS.
Law Enforcement understands Law Enforcement.
Fire understands taking cats out of trees.

We each have our niche and generally speaking, we do our jobs correctly and appropriately. Have police officer acted maliciously? Yup. Have EMS and Fire personnel acted irresponsibly? Yup.

Depending on the amount of interaction you have with LE, you have a varying understanding of how their continuum of force works and how it properly escalates. EMS providers encountering a violent intoxicated patient will follow our own continuum of force and escalate it appropriately. Generally we start with verbal deescalation, then we resort to attempting to gain physical control and finally, we will utilize our pharmaceutical options.

I agree with the people that have stated that what comes off as brutal treatment by LE, is actually LEO's being forced to rapidly escalate in order to maintain control and personal safety.

Conversely, there are those situations, much like when a patient is lying to you and you can see right through it, that seem hinky and inconsistent. We aren't investigators, but we can at least do our due diligence and see that a hinky situation gets looked into. We are professionals and I expect that the LEO's and FF's I deal with hold themselves to a professional standard. If something needs to be dealt with, it needs to be dealt with. As much as I adore the statement "Snitches get stitches," responsible professionals will be advocates for those who have none.
 
etacalpha said:
I am paramedic student in MO. I have been tasked with the assignment to decide ethically what I would do in the situation that a hypoglycemic person was believed to be intoxicated and the beat with an asp presumably for self defense both before and after being restrained. At the time in this situation the officers are not aware of any medical issue and are overly confident pt is just drunk.

Pt was hit in head several times causing 3 open hematomas as well as in the upper arm and posterior thigh. pt was aggressive and belligerent but is now unresponsive to pain with gurgling respiration after "being subdued".

My question is not of treatment or what decision to make as that is for me to decide but do any of you have any protocols for reporting such an event or any first hand experience of something similar?
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Well...... as an LEO and EMS use of force instructor....... I think this is a RIDICULOUS scenario to offer a student. Especially when violence against EMS is such an issue. Why is the instructor not taking class time to discuss provider/patient safety as far as violence?

1) If there is any question/complaint to the level of fore used......this isn't the "good ole days"..... and investigation will take place. If you were on scene...... you would be interviewed.

2) And probably most important........ a landmark USE OF FORCE case is Graham V. Connor that actually involves a Diabetic. http://www.officer.com/article/10249014/graham-v-connor

3) Were the officers "reasonable" in their application of force? If they started with striking to the legs, then moved to the head after non-compliance; officers actions could be deemed "reasonable". Officers are allowed the One Plus One theory for custody/control during a lawful arrest.

4) It is not an officers job to be 100% correct in their use of force based on the "totality of the circumstances" just that they be "reasonable".

Again........ maybe I am missing something with the scenario as to the way it was given to the class........... but as a trainer I find it disturbing.
 
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DT4EMS said:
Well...... as an LEO and EMS use of force instructor....... I think this is a RIDICULOUS scenario to offer a student. Especially when violence against EMS is such an issue. Why is the instructor not taking class time to discuss provider/patient safety as far as violence?
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How do you know the instructor isn't discussing provider and patient safety, somewhere else in the course?

This is one example being used to teach ethics. Seems reasonable to me.
 
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