reporting police brutality

[DT4EMS]

How do you know the instructor isn't discussing provider and patient safety, somewhere else in the course?

This is one example being used to teach ethics. Seems reasonable to me.

Speaking from national experience on the subject....... it would be a blessing if the instructor was. I am stating the very way that topic is described in the thread is misleading.

I will state that is is highly unlikely much more than lip service is given. Trust me, I give kudos where deserved when instructors are teaching more than a 4 hour block on scene safety.

Needs to be a more clear cut case of abuse/excessive force.......not the fact it was a diabetic. Did you read Graham V. Connor? Or are you just wanting to debate me personally?

To clarify- The student wasn't asking anything related to the safety of the scene. His post was about "reporting police brutality".

Just as any profession, there are some in police work that should not be. But the overwhelming majority are truly genuine people just like in EMS. Some in EMS have no business in the profession but the majority are really great people.

 

[Farmer2DO]

I am paramedic student in MO. I have been tasked with the assignment to decide ethically what I would do in the situation that a hypoglycemic person was believed to be intoxicated and the beat with an asp presumably for self defense both before and after being restrained. At the time in this situation the officers are not aware of any medical issue and are overly confident pt is just drunk.

Pt was hit in head several times causing 3 open hematomas as well as in the upper arm and posterior thigh. pt was aggressive and belligerent but is now unresponsive to pain with gurgling respiration after "being subdued".

My question is not of treatment or what decision to make as that is for me to decide but do any of you have any protocols for reporting such an event or any first hand experience of something similar?

You don't have to convict the officers yourself, or do any kind of investigation. Just make sure that your concerns are passed up the ladder in an appropriate manner. That's ethical, fair and legal. From the viewpoint of a non-LEO, beating someone AFTER they've been restrained, and with multiple hits on the head is NOT appropriate. I think that sitting back and not saying anything is dirty and corrupt.

Well...... as an LEO and EMS use of force instructor....... I think this is a RIDICULOUS scenario to offer a student. Especially when violence against EMS is such an issue. Why is the instructor not taking class time to discuss provider/patient safety as far as violence?

Two things: we don't know that the instructor isn't taking class time to discuss the other issues you mention. Perhaps they are. OP didn't even mention those, and I really don't think they are germane in this discussion.

Second, IMHO, I don't think it's a RIDICULOUS scenario at all, despite what you assert. The instructor is obviously trying to get the students to contemplate how they would react in a situation that appears fairly obvious (someone got the crap beat out of them in an inappropriate way for being hypoglycemic), but where they may have to be concerned about real world backlash from police. Trust me, when you call for help, you want them to come. I get that. But people have rights. Based on the information we were given, this guy's constitutional rights were violated. For me, that's a really, really big issue.

1) If there is any question/complaint to the level of fore used......this isn't the "good ole days"..... and investigation will take place. If you were on scene...... you would be interviewed.

This is absolutely the good old days, in some places, still. Anyone who thinks that this would not be investigated appropriately in some places needs a dose of reality. I'm not saying everywhere, or even most places, but cover ups of LEO screwups absolutely still happen.

2) And probably most important........ a landmark USE OF FORCE case is Graham V. Connor that actually involves a Diabetic. http://www.officer.com/article/10249014/graham-v-connor

3) Were the officers "reasonable" in their application of force? If they started with striking to the legs, then moved to the head after non-compliance; officers actions could be deemed "reasonable". Officers are allowed the One Plus One theory for custody/control during a lawful arrest.

Just about everyone on here agrees that smashing on someone's head with an asp is using potentially lethal force. So by your reasoning, if someone doesn't comply with orders after being beaten on the legs, it's OK to escalate to deadly physical force? You don't even mention if the person is a risk to the safety of the officers or others around them. Graham v. Connor by the way, does address that issue. It says that the nature and quality of the intrusion on a person's 4th amendment rights (very, VERY important rights IMO) must be balanced against the governmental interests at stake. Basically, what's going to happen with this restrained, unarmed person if I DON'T beat the crap out of him? Is he going to hurt or kill someone? Given this scenario, and the case law applied, I think the loud and resounding answer is that someone needs to step up and speak for this patient.

And since when is being arrested for a medical condition that induces an altered mental status lawful? Again, you and I are likely to disagree on this point.

4) It is not an officers job to be 100% correct in their use of force based on the "totality of the circumstances" just that they be "reasonable".

Actually, the case law says an objective standard must be used, and that officer's subjective thoughts are irrelevant. To me, that's not the same as being "reasonable". Who decides "reasonable"? The officer who's smashing in the skull of the restrained, hypoglycemic diabetic?

You and I likely have VERY different definitions of reasonable.

Needs to be a more clear cut case of abuse/excessive force.......not the fact it was a diabetic.

How much more clear cut do you need? The patient was restrained, and got beaten AFTER being restrained. That says punitive to me. In addition, he was beaten on the head. When done by an asp, that's a potentially lethal use of force.

Did you read Graham V. Connor?

I certainly did.

Or are you just wanting to debate me personally?

I was only saying initially that putting a question like that to a group of students seemed reasonable to me. Having them think about a situation like that before they're in the thick of it is wise teaching. But, since you wanted to bring more into it, I have replied.

 

[DT4EMS]

I am paramedic student in MO. I have been tasked with the assignment to decide ethically what I would do in the situation that a hypoglycemic person was believed to be intoxicated and the beat with an asp presumably for self defense both before and after being restrained. At the time in this situation the officers are not aware of any medical issue and are overly confident pt is just drunk.

Pt was hit in head several times causing 3 open hematomas as well as in the upper arm and posterior thigh. pt was aggressive and belligerent but is now unresponsive to pain with gurgling respiration after "being subdued".

My question is not of treatment or what decision to make as that is for me to decide but do any of you have any protocols for reporting such an event or any first hand experience of something similar?

I am quoting the OP....... I am not seeing where it says he was struck in the head while restrained. I think ethics is majorly important. It is that more often than not threads like this drift waaaaay off topic and people jump on the bash another agency.

In answering the OP I put an answer that is case law regarding a diabetic and use of force.

Yes an ASP to the head is lethal force. It is something I have to speak on across the country because EMS believe "O2 Therapy" you know...... whacking someone in the head with an ) O2 bottle is just the way it is. There are times when lethal force is justified........but in EMS it's rare.

Here is the skinny.......... if someone "observed" a handcuffed person....... struck in the head with any object....... they should indeed have a moral duty to report it.

Sorry.......... but the OP didn't state he "witnessed" the strikes "AFTER" the restraint. If that statement were there...... I would have taken a completely different stance. Maybe too many years of having reports ripped to shreds in court.

So it's in the way I understand what was written.

I can also tell you, I was involved in a Use of Force investigation years ago. A suspect was chased, pepper sprayed and dropped to the ground. Before using OC, the officer pulled out his ASP and ordered the guy to the ground. The officer never swung his baton. Guess what witnesses gave sworn statements to:
Yup "I saw the officer hit the guy in the head with a baton". Thank goodness there was video.

And I think it's great that only cops lie on reports.........

 

[Farmer2DO]

I am quoting the OP....... I am not seeing where it says he was struck in the head while restrained.


Here is the skinny.......... if someone "observed" a handcuffed person....... struck in the head with any object....... they should indeed have a moral duty to report it.

Sorry.......... but the OP didn't state he witnessed the strikes "AFTER" the restraint. If that statement were there...... I would have taken a completely different stance.

I am paramedic student in MO. I have been tasked with the assignment to decide ethically what I would do in the situation that a hypoglycemic person was believed to be intoxicated and the beat with an asp presumably for self defense both before and after being restrained. At the time in this situation the officers are not aware of any medical issue and are overly confident pt is just drunk.

Pt was hit in head several times causing 3 open hematomas as well as in the upper arm and posterior thigh. pt was aggressive and belligerent but is now unresponsive to pain with gurgling respiration after "being subdued".

My question is not of treatment or what decision to make as that is for me to decide but do any of you have any protocols for reporting such an event or any first hand experience of something similar?

My intention was not to say that he was struck in the head while restrained; it was to say that he was beaten AFTER being restrained, as bolded above, and that he was beaten on the head. Not necessarily at the same time.

But one of my original concerns still stands. You think that escalating to deadly physical force was appropriate, given the lack of other information? I sure don't.....

No one should be beaten by police AFTER being restrained. Ever.

 

[DT4EMS]

I was only saying initially that putting a question like that to a group of students seemed reasonable to me. Having them think about a situation like that before they're in the thick of it is wise teaching. But, since you wanted to bring more into it, I have replied.

Which is why I am so passionate about scene safety my friend.

I would love to know more of the context. I would gladly openly discuss this with his instructor. The reason I consider this interesting........

People remember based upon emotion. This student felt it enough to bring it to an EMS forum. I would like to know if the same is spent on scene safety more than "BSI Scene Safe" and moving on with a scenario.

I'm saying kudos for the ethics thought......... but how about something like "Say your partner is drinking on duty" or ....... "You see your partner put gas in his vehicle using the fuel card" something like "You saw your preceptor take a patients narcotic meds and put them in their pocket"

There are little fires all over the place about EMS vs LEO or FD vs EMS....... I am dead set against anything that can drive a wedge between professions. Period.

 

[DT4EMS]

My intention was not to say that he was struck in the head while restrained; it was to say that he was beaten AFTER being restrained, as bolded above, and that he was beaten on the head. Not necessarily at the same time.

But one of my original concerns still stands. You think that escalating to deadly physical force was appropriate, given the lack of other information? I sure don't.....

No one should be beaten by police AFTER being restrained. Ever.

You and I agree 100%. Once in cuffs...... there would be a very minute fraction of events that could constitute the use of lethal force. And YES..... there are times lethal force can be used against unarmed people.

Size, Sex, Age, Skill level, Fatigue can have an officer up the level of force.

And again....... it is in the reading. When reading it..... it wasn't clear to me the strikes occurred after the restraint.

And in case it got buried....... this was my previous reply:
I would love to know more of the context. I would gladly openly discuss this with his instructor. The reason I consider this interesting........

People remember based upon emotion. This student felt it enough to bring it to an EMS forum. I would like to know if the same is spent on scene safety more than "BSI Scene Safe" and moving on with a scenario.

I'm saying kudos for the ethics thought......... but how about something like "Say your partner is drinking on duty" or ....... "You see your partner put gas in his vehicle using the fuel card" something like "You saw your preceptor take a patients narcotic meds and put them in their pocket"

There are little fires all over the place about EMS vs LEO or FD vs EMS....... I am dead set against anything that can drive a wedge between professions. Period.

 

[Sandog]

There are little fires all over the place about EMS vs LEO or FD vs EMS....... I am dead set against anything that can drive a wedge between professions. Period.
__________________

Well said DT4

 

[Sandog]

At the time in this situation the officers are not aware of any medical issue and are overly confident pt is just drunk.

I object your honor, we do not know what the officers were thinking at the time.

 

[etacalpha]

As I appreciate the amount of responses, most if which have been redirected into hhat is right and wrong in thia situation. I believe scenario is purposly vague as to cause just that. I am and have not asked as to what is ethical in this scenario. That is the assignment for me to decide on my own. To that I believe it is anobligation to report and if nothing else have a propper investigation done. As I understand scenario pt was hit b multiple times in the head with or by several officers present. One pt with an unkown skill level who is not in a coreect state of mine soes not warrent the use of deadly force. As I read it the pt was hit while restrained which makes this worse.



My questiones are and have been from the beginning does anyone have a protocol, SOP, or regulation as to how any simular incidents are reported and does anyone have anything else similar that has happened in real life?

Responded from my phone apologize for typing errors.

 

[DT4EMS]

As I appreciate the amount of responses, most if which have been redirected into hhat is right and wrong in thia situation. I believe scenario is purposly vague as to cause just that. I am and have not asked as to what is ethical in this scenario. That is the assignment for me to decide on my own. To that I believe it is anobligation to report and if nothing else have a propper investigation done. As I understand scenario pt was hit b multiple times in the head with or by several officers present. One pt with an unkown skill level who is not in a coreect state of mine soes not warrent the use of deadly force. As I read it the pt was hit while restrained which makes this worse.



My questiones are and have been from the beginning does anyone have a protocol, SOP, or regulation as to how any simular incidents are reported and does anyone have anything else similar that has happened in real life?

Responded from my phone apologize for typing errors.

Gotcha. Well...... in dealing with the folks around the country the way I do, I have never heard of an SOP in existence like that. Not to say their isn't one.........but that is not something an agency would brag about having.

Now, if in the scenario as given....... if you witnessed a crime, regardless of the crime, do YOU morally feel obligated to report it. (Hitting a person who is not resisting and is currently mechanically restrained is excessive force hands down.)

I can tell you that I have come forward in the past with violations I have observed. Not a comfortable spot to be in as a cop.......but it was the right thing to do.

Good Luck with your assignment. It makes much more sense now.

 

[Sandog]

My questiones are and have been from the beginning does anyone have a protocol, SOP, or regulation as to how any simular incidents are reported and does anyone have anything else similar that has happened in real life?

Responded from my phone apologize for typing errors.

So my question is. Does one need a protocol for doing the morally right thing? I do not believe such protocols exist as what is morally correct often prevails, and no protocol need be written.

 

[etacalpha]

I am not asking if there are a protocols for when to report but how. I agree with your question/statement as far as what is morally right generally does prevail.

 

[Shishkabob]

I am paramedic student in MO. I have been tasked with the assignment to decide ethically what I would do in the situation that a hypoglycemic person was believed to be intoxicated and the beat with an asp presumably for self defense both before and after being restrained. At the time in this situation the officers are not aware of any medical issue and are overly confident pt is just drunk.

Before being restrained? Absolutely nothing. I put no burden on anyone, let alone police, to make sure no one is experiencing a medical condition prior to protecting themselves. A hypoglycemic person and a postictal patient can kill you just as easily as someone without any conditions.



As for 'after restraint', hard to say without you specifying details. Just because someone is in handcuffs doesn't mean they're not dangerous (too many stories exist of people shooting cops even in handcuffs in the back of a squad car). Handcuffs don't subdue you, they just make it a bit harder for you to fight. You still need to control someone, even after 'restrained'.

Once you've dealt with a few people YOU'VE had to restrain physically and chemically, it will make more sense: Restraints don't mean restrained.





Now if I was convinced it was without a doubt abuse, I'd be sending emails to my supervisor in charge of interagency relations and then to the PD.

 

[Sandog]

If I personally witnessed a guy in restraints being beaten down by a officer, I would most likely end up in cuffs too, as I would attempt to protect my patient. I just don't see this scenario playing out.

 

[mycrofft]

DT4EMS, that link...

Not that I'm wholly a style Nazi, but the writer's grammar and thought structure in that article make me wonder if his/her native language is or is not English.