Question about Refusing Care

Sasha said:
but can mimic true medical emergencies and should always be assesed to rule out true medical emergencies.
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Exactly. Many costly mistakes for both the patient and the EMS providers have been made over assuming alcohol.

Detained California Stroke Victim Sues Paramedics, Police

Friday, December 19, 2008
http://www.emsresponder.com/web/onl...-Stroke-Victim-Sues-Paramedics--Police/1$8708

Dec. 16--A Bakersfield surgeon handcuffed and forced to wait more than an hour for treatment after suffering a massive stroke last year is suing the Bakersfield Police Department, Hall Ambulance, the county of Kern and others.

The case could cost taxpayers millions in damages.

The November 2007 incident represents a series of monumental blunders by police -- who may have believed Dr. Mohamad Harb was intoxicated -- and paramedics -- who should have overruled police and immediately taken Harb to a hospital, said Steven Gibbs, the attorney representing the doctor and his family.

The stroke has left Harb unable to practice medicine. The 58-year-old neonatal intensive care specialist and sole provider for his wife and four children spent two months in a coma before waking to a life in which he had to learn how to feed himself again, Gibbs said.
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And who can now forget the infamous Washington D.C. alcohol mishap?

Four D.C. Firefighter/EMTs Face Internal Charges
http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=3643


The Death of David Rosenbaum

By Colbert I. King
Saturday, February 25, 2006;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/24/AR2006022401676.html


Florida also has separate statutes for addressing how to legally detain someone with drugs and alcohol vs those with psych problems.
 
CAOX3 said:
ETOH alone is not a medical emergency, hence there is no need for an ambulance. Its legal and the desired affect is to become altered.

However in conjunction with a suspected injury. I have seen drunks jump out third floor windows and then walk half a mile on a open leg fracture.
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It is in Mass. When can transport a Pt with just a cc of Etoh. We call AMS, even though we know it is Etoh. Too many drunks in our state. Also MA accepts alcoholism as disease.
 
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Competent vs. incompetent assesment.
 
Do you think adequate assesments were done on these pts? Incompetent providers make up 99% of EMS litigation. I should say competent providers acting incompetent.
 
We treat the sick and injured. Some of them are drunk. Some are not. The same rules apply in drunk and sober patients. We need to determine their ability to give informed consent. The ETOH is secondary to their physical condition. It can complicate our ability to determine their symptoms but it is still secondary.

Some drunks have other health issues. We have one who has been hospitalized for a cerebral bleed. You can't rule out other issues and you sometimes can't determine if what you are seeing is related to the drunkeness or something else. It's a very tricky situation. Drunks love to find some other reason for their problems than their alcohol abuse. They weren't drunk.. they were sick..... and it's your fault they didn't get the treatment they deserved.. not the fact that they haven't drawn sober breath in years. I'm very careful with patients that have been drinking. I don't want to be made the pawn in their denial game.
 
I dont argue with them, want to refuse go ahead...
 
newEMT said:
I would have to get vital signs though according to our protocol. How would you deal with a patient who didn't want you to even take their pulse or BP? Sorry, these are really basic questions but we never really talked about these issues in EMT class and I don't want to screw up.
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93 refuse all...
 
CAOX3 said:
Incompetent providers make up 99% of EMS litigation.
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Could you please cite this? There's too many medics out here spewing a plethora of stats and nothing to back them up.
 
Don't you know that 35% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
 
Don't YOU know that 63.214% of of that 35% are actually true?
 
karaya said:
Could you please cite this? There's too many medics out here spewing a plethora of stats and nothing to back them up.[/QUOTE

As I stated in the second part of my post. Most are competent providers acting incompetent.

Read the newspapers.
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I do read the newspapers and newspapers are hardly a credible source for statistics unless of course the paper cites it's sources.

You made the statement that "Incompetent providers make up 99% of EMS litigation" and I asked if you could cite this statistic.

It appears you cannot.
 
CAOX3 said:
Here you go, draw your own conclusions.

http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman2/publish/criminal.shtml
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Nope, that is hardly a statistic. Furthermore, none of those ten articles had anything to do with direct patient care.

I didn't ask for articles to draw a conclusion upon. I just simply asked if you could provide a credible citation to support your claim, "Incompetent providers make up 99% of EMS litigation."
 
What else would it be besides incompetence.

Read some case files where litigation was brought against EMS providers.
 
karaya said:
Nope, that is hardly a statistic. Furthermore, none of those ten articles had anything to do with direct patient care.

I didn't ask for articles to draw a conclusion upon. I just simply asked if you could provide a credible citation to support your claim, "Incompetent providers make up 99% of EMS litigation."
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One could argue just the oposite that the majority of EMS litigation is money grubbing bogus law suits. But I can not back that but I would believe that before 99% are because of incompetent providors.
 
CAOX3 said:
What else would it be besides incompetence.

Read some case files where litigation was brought against EMS providers.
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Okay, it's pretty clear by now that you cannot come up with a credible citation that supports your statement, "Incompetent providers make up 99% of EMS litigation."

Your statement leaves one to the belief that EMS litigation is brought upon 99% of the time by incompetent providers, which in itself suggests incompetency in providing patient care.

Clearly the 99% is strictly from your point of view and in no way an accurate statistic as to what the percentage of EMS litigation is in relation to incompetency.

So, this ad hoc stat was arrived by your parsing a few newspaper articles. What about EMS litigation that never made the papers? Seems that would skew you stat a bit?
 
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