Punch a medic - it is not that expensive.

[DrParasite]

so you treat the following situations differently if they take a swing at you?

drunk a hole

violent edp

drunk kid

drunk former marine or football player

violent kid

combative accidental OD former linebacker and current police officer

PCP user who is running around naked and doesn't want to be restrained

and then go into:

diabetic AMS

CVA AMS

combative overdose

user of recreational pharmaceutical substances

EDP who are just off their meds

and then you get involved in the domestic where the aggressor doesn't want you to help the victim, and he will eject you from his property if you don't leave willingly

for me, anyone who takes a swing at me is getting restrained. by me if needed, and by the cops when they get there. anyone who assaults an EMS worker should be charged just as if they assaulted a cop or firefighter.

 

[EFDUnit823]

so you treat the following situations differently if they take a swing at you?....for me, anyone who takes a swing at me is getting restrained. by me if needed, and by the cops when they get there. anyone who assaults an EMS worker should be charged just as if they assaulted a cop or firefighter.

Not sure if this is a response to my post specifically, toward the OP, or just in general. Considering it is after mine, I will assume you are asking me.

“so you treat the following situations differently if they take a swing at you?”- DrParasite

Absolutely! Anyone who has been doing this for any length of time will confess that each situation is unique in and of itself, and should be treated as such. Whether, I am encountering any potentially hostile situation through the fire department or ambulance service, I am not there to kick *** and take names. Though I have and will assist with restraining as needed, I firmly believe one can be successful with situational awareness and have a good idea how to handle a given situation. Many of the examples you gave should be left to the police department making the “scene safe,” before just running in to a potentially hazard situation. Albeit, if I allow myself into a situation where I have been swung on, then yes I agree, whether they are eight or eighty they will be restrained.

“anyone who assaults an EMS worker should be charged just as if they assaulted a cop or firefighter”- DrParasite

I agree one hundred percent! My point is that charging people for “attacking” EMS personnel should be left up to the EMS person who was attacked instead of just a non-exception default. In other words, left to a case by case basis. Why? We should have enough medical discernment to judge between a would-be attacker just being violent or a victim of their condition.

Whether I am clocked in as a firefighter or an EMT, my job does not entail law enforcement. If at any time I need the services of the third agency in “first-responding,” i.e. police, then I have a radio to get them there. In my opinion, the only exception to not waiting for law enforcement is if I, or some else, is in danger from being hurt by the patient.

 

[Craig Alan Evans]

In Va assaulting a firefighter or paramedic is the same as assaulting a police officer and carries a minimum of 6 months in jail. The judge cannot reduce the sentence for any reason.

 

[johnrsemt]

In response to EFDunit823: I have quite a lot of experience with Diabetic patients; and while you can argue that the diabetic who takes their insulin but doesn't eat brings it on themselves: you have to also say that the one that eats what they are supposed to, takes their insulin and oral meds like they are supposed; goes to bed at the same time (within 15 minutes) and has a 2am snack next to the bed (same snack, and amount every night), with an alarm set so that they wake up and eat it: but wakes up at 0800 with a BGL ranging from 28-200; it would NOT be their fault if they were combative.

The above example is my mother: They can't figure out why her body does that to her. Good thing is that she just gets lethargic but not combative.

Your right if it was a patient who doesn't take their meds because "I don't want to" or "cause I didn't have time. Or takes their insulin but doesn't eat due to the same reasons: yes that is the same as a person who drinks. But someone with a metabolic condition that makes them combative or due to a CVA; that is different; and I would treat it differently; and I have treated it differently when it comes to charges

 

[Veneficus]

I think we are losing sight of intent.

In many states I am aware of, including my home, assaulting a EMS provider or firefighter is the same as assaulting a police officer.

But before we decide to throw everyone in prison, I think it is important to understand the intent of such law.

A key phrase that comes to mind is "knowlingly and with willful or malicious intent."

Psych patients, diabetics, etc might actually assault and in some cases batter healthcare providers.

It is not knowingly, willfully, or malicious. Clearly we should not reactively bring criminal charges against them.

A drug OD, alcoholic, etc is really now different.

Now some may argue that nobody forced them to drink, use drugs, etc. But that assumes there is no physical addiction. Because once somebody requires a substance to homeostas, it is no longer a choice, it is required for life.

Once upon a time, the idea of making it a crime to assault a police officer comes from the idea that an assault on the King's soldiers is an assault on the king.

If you were brazen enough to use violence against those with a duty to preserve the peace and order of society, you were a threat to society at large.

That was culturally extended to those with the duty to provide care or protection to society.

Because of the nature of healthcare, healthcare providers will often come into contact with people whos minds are not functioning properly.

That is inherently dangerous.

Unlike law enforcement however, so little (for all intents and purposes none) time is spent educating or training medical providers for these dangers.

Only a few places spend money on protective equipment, and even fewer providers utilize it regularly.

Actually I was on the job for more than a year before I was given any education or training on the use of force, what was allowable, etc. To this day I have received no medical based training in the techniques.

The only reason I got the education in it I did is because two providers at an agency near where I worked killed a patient restraining them. (sandwitching the pt between 2 backboards and sitting on top as the story goes)

Both were lucky not to be convicted of anything and both were fired.

Back to the law.

It is becomming more common in the whole world to recognize that people not in control of their minds are not always criminally responsible for their actions under a variety of circumstances.

Most criminal justice systems where I have worked are simply too overwhelmed to spend time and effort on "he said, she said," no lasting damage cases.

Taking a punch from an altered patient is quite a different story than somebody who picks out a police, fire, or EMS provider as the target of violence. The later being when the intent and full force of the law is applied consistently.

I encourage everyone involved in patient care to do what they need to in order to receive training and education before any incident occurs.

Do not assume the law protects you, you are within your defensive rights, or that word of mouth in your agency is sufficent training.

As I said before, it is not only possible to be called out for acting in contra to professional standards, but it is possible that your response is also a crime.

 

[EFDUnit823]

@ Veneficus Bravo and well said sir!

@ johnrsemt Thus the need to consider all situations on a case by case basis, instead of a “fry them all” just because they fall under a certain category.