Punch a medic - it is not that expensive.

medic417

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DesertMedic66

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Welcome to California. If I get punched by a patient I am swinging right back.
 

Veneficus

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A citation is more than anyone who ever hit me at work ever got.
 

Sasha

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Welcome to California. If I get punched by a patient I am swinging right back.

If they're swinging because of dementia, cva, diabetes etc you're going to swing back? Really?
 

DesertMedic66

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If they're swinging because of dementia, cva, diabetes etc you're going to swing back? Really?

For those patients who are aggressive due to medical issues my partner and I (fire and LEO) will take them down to get them under control. If I have a psych patient swing on me and hit me then yes I will swing back followed by a take down to gain control of the scene.
 

Veneficus

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Psych is a medical issue. ?????

What in your mind is the difference between a patient with a heart problem, lung problem, liver problem, or brain problem?
 

DesertMedic66

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Psych is a medical issue. ?????

What in your mind is the difference between a patient with a heart problem, lung problem, liver problem, or brain problem?

In my poorly worded post I never said that psych is not a medical issue.
 

Sasha

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Why would you swing back then take down?
 

Veneficus

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Just so I understand, you do or do not respond to aggresive psych patients differently from aggresive "medical" patients.

From your post it looks like you treat the 2 groups differently?
 

abckidsmom

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For those patients who are aggressive due to medical issues my partner and I (fire and LEO) will take them down to get them under control. If I have a psych patient swing on me and hit me then yes I will swing back followed by a take down to gain control of the scene.

I have had plenty of patients take swings at me, but very few connect.

We always, always just took then down to the ground and subdued them, never hitting them.

Why would you ever respond to a patient hitting you by hitting them? It's not necessary, inappropriate, and unprofessional.

And what Vene said. Psych=Medical. Out of your mind for any reason is just out of your mind. Even for intoxication. Subdue, not assault.
 
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DesertMedic66

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Just so I understand, you do or do not respond to aggresive psych patients differently from aggresive "medical" patients.

From your post it looks like you treat the 2 groups differently?

All depends on the patient and what events have occurred.
 

Veneficus

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It's not necessary, inappropriate, and unprofessional.

and in some instances illegal.

I would encourage you to go to the DT4EMS website at the very least, and do some more research into the topic.

If there is a report of patient abuse at the hospital, there will be an investigation.

There are rules governing the use of force on patients. Always do your best to be well within your bounds.
 

JPINFV

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Without knowing what the exact penal code section the suspect was charged with, it's impossible to know what the penalty is. A "citation" ("notice to appear") can be issued in misdemeanors, however this is most common with misdemeanor traffic citations. As such, any speculation about what the penalties may or may not be are just that.
California Penal Code 241(c) covers assault against a paramedic.
California Penal Code 243(b) covers battery against a paramedic.

Assault or battery against a paramedic in California afforded the same penalties as if committed against a police officer.
 

EFDUnit823

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It is a fine line between “restraining” and “assaulting” back. Where I am from, most calls that have a high potential for aggressive patients an appropriate law enforcement agency will be simultaneously dispatched. Of course, there is always that time where you have to make the call to keep your distance and request law enforcement. My personal opinion, I believe most all situations can be defused based upon our reaction to the situation. However, in Indiana if an individual does decide to assault EMS personnel we have IC 35-42-2-1 which makes that assault a Class D Felony.

EDIT: In Indiana, it is actually a Class B Misdemeanor if no bodily harm is done (A person who knowingly or intentionally touches another person in a rude, insolent, or angry manner), and a Class D Felony if bodily harm is done.

If you wish to look up the law in your State, this may help;

http://www.ena.org/IENR/Documents/State Survey - Criminal Laws - Misdemeanor and Felony.pdf
 
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JPINFV

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The two California Penal Codes that I listed don't designate whether they are felony or misdemeanors. However since neither result in imprisonment over 1 year, I think they're both misdemeanors. The reality is how long would you want a drunk 15 year old to be imprisoned for?
 

johnrsemt

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I would want a drunk 15 year old who commits assualt and battery on me to be imprisoned for as long as the law allows. Same as if he got behind the wheel and killed someone.

Why would you want other people to see that if they assualt you, they get a slap on the wrist? If it is a diabetic person, or similar that is different due to the fact that they did not do it on purpose: But a person does not "accidently" drink themselves to the point of being physically abusive.
 

Veneficus

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I would want a drunk 15 year old who commits assualt and battery on me to be imprisoned for as long as the law allows. Same as if he got behind the wheel and killed someone.

Why would you want other people to see that if they assualt you, they get a slap on the wrist? If it is a diabetic person, or similar that is different due to the fact that they did not do it on purpose: But a person does not "accidently" drink themselves to the point of being physically abusive.

That is why administration of the law is in the hands of a judge.

The plantfif's desire for vengeance must be weighed against the threat to society and the pleas of mercy from the perpetrator in a fair and balanced way.
 

Tigger

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For those patients who are aggressive due to medical issues my partner and I (fire and LEO) will take them down to get them under control. If I have a psych patient swing on me and hit me then yes I will swing back followed by a take down to gain control of the scene.

Why not just skip the whole hitting the patient thing and just skip to the takedown and restrain part? I have a hard time coming up with a time in which it's appropriate to hit a patient unless your life is imminent danger. Unless you knock the person out you're just pissing them off even more, making it harder to gain control. And if you sucker punch a psych transfer unconscious, you may have some explaining to do.
 

EFDUnit823

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I would want a drunk 15 year old who commits assualt and battery on me to be imprisoned for as long as the law allows. Same as if he got behind the wheel and killed someone.

Why would you want other people to see that if they assualt you, they get a slap on the wrist? If it is a diabetic person, or similar that is different due to the fact that they did not do it on purpose: But a person does not "accidently" drink themselves to the point of being physically abusive.

Ok, I must respectfully say that you are contradicting yourself here and I will explain why. But first, I do agree with the fact that there must be consequences for assaulting EMS personnel and they should be enforced. However, this should be on a case by case basis maybe even left up to the EMS person who was assaulted to press charges or not.

Now, you say you “I would want a drunk 15 year old who commits assault and battery on me to be imprisoned for as long as the law allows.” Ok, cool, I can understand where you are coming from. However, then this must apply to EVERYONE, including the diabetic patient. Why? Think back when you were first taught about “implied consent.” When generalizing, there are only a few things that fall under implied consent, one of them being an altered mental status e.g. intoxicated person. With that, how can we say that because of their altered mental status we are justified with “forcing” treatment on them which may/or may not involve restraints, yet in the same breath, claim that they were c/a/o enough to be punished for their actions in said state of mind? Keep in mind; some states the severity of their punishment can be pretty harsh. So, why include a diabetic (or other) person with an intoxicated person you may ask? Granted, when someone is intoxicated they more than likely (some would say obviously) consumed the substance to get them to that state. Like you said, “…a person does not ‘accidently’ drink themselves to the point…” However, let us consider the “medically exempt” example you gave. I am not going to claim to know your experiences with diabetic emergencies, but with mine, when investigating the “events leading up to” I always seem to find they essentially brought the diabetic emergency onto themselves. A lot like the intoxicated person who took the substance.

With that considered, why would we want to crucify the one and forgive the other, especially a fifteen year old? So, they made a bad choice! I am sure everyone here were perfect angels as teenagers. Why take away the chance from this child to “learn” from their mistake only to replace it with the likely hood of destroying the rest of their life?
 
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