Pre-meds in EMS

[WuLabsWuTecH]

So I've read a few posts now discussing premeds in EMS and the few that I've read there is generally a negative connotation towards us. I was wondering if that holds true of most EMS workers out there?

I'm in it for the experience, and since I need to make money to pay for school anyway, why not do both at the same time? I used to volunteer in hospitals and would get to watch a lot of cases and learn from doctors shadowing in the downtime, but I feel that working as an EMT-B (on ALS trucks) gives me good exposure to the field, and that in no way does my being also a pre-med compromise patient care, professionalism, or safety.

I understand that I may have more book knowledge on certain topics than the medics, but I let the medics do their work and I know that they have more experience and skill than I do. One of the EMT-B's I work with is a MED3 (3rd year medical student) and he seems to know more than most of the medics most of the time. But that doesn't mean he bosses them around or oversteps his bounds. I've never worked on the same crew as he (we run medic-medic-basic) but from talking with the medics, they respect him as well and will let him use a lot of his skills (patient assessment, advanced skills, etc) but never if it gets in the way of patient care. As a matter of fact, the only gripe they have about him is that when he is in charge, his reports turn out to be dissertations and that they're at the ER forever waiting for him to finish writing!

One of the gripes I hear was that it "looks good" on resumes. Probably, true, but have the people who make these gripes think that perhaps the guys who are dedicating 8 years of their life to academic education and 3-7 more years after that of on the job training actually LIKE medicine enough to do it for more than just a resume padder?

I'm just wondering what you all think about premeds in EMS. General thoughts and stories welcome!

 

[JesseM515]

So I've read a few posts now discussing premeds in EMS and the few that I've read there is generally a negative connotation towards us. I was wondering if that holds true of most EMS workers out there?

I'm in it for the experience, and since I need to make money to pay for school anyway, why not do both at the same time? I used to volunteer in hospitals and would get to watch a lot of cases and learn from doctors shadowing in the downtime, but I feel that working as an EMT-B (on ALS trucks) gives me good exposure to the field, and that in no way does my being also a pre-med compromise patient care, professionalism, or safety.

I understand that I may have more book knowledge on certain topics than the medics, but I let the medics do their work and I know that they have more experience and skill than I do. One of the EMT-B's I work with is a MED3 (3rd year medical student) and he seems to know more than most of the medics most of the time. But that doesn't mean he bosses them around or oversteps his bounds. I've never worked on the same crew as he (we run medic-medic-basic) but from talking with the medics, they respect him as well and will let him use a lot of his skills (patient assessment, advanced skills, etc) but never if it gets in the way of patient care. As a matter of fact, the only gripe they have about him is that when he is in charge, his reports turn out to be dissertations and that they're at the ER forever waiting for him to finish writing!

One of the gripes I hear was that it "looks good" on resumes. Probably, true, but have the people who make these gripes think that perhaps the guys who are dedicating 8 years of their life to academic education and 3-7 more years after that of on the job training actually LIKE medicine enough to do it for more than just a resume padder?

I'm just wondering what you all think about premeds in EMS. General thoughts and stories welcome!

I think it is great for pre-meds to work in EMS... it is a chance to get experience in a related field and put all that knowledge to use.

 

[JPINFV]

The issue I see isn't an interpersonal issue but more of a professional advancement issue. Pre-health students (including pre-meds) come in, keep wages low (high supply with high turnover=low wages) while "taking" spots away from people who want to make it a profession. I say "taking" because of the sure volume of new graduates and the number of people who drop out during EMT-B class. Now my take on this is that out of all of the other issues delaying the growth of EMS, a bunch of whippersnappers pulling a drive through on their way to other health professions is the least of EMS's problems.

 

[ericg533]

I went pre-med because of EMS experience. Not the other way around. I'm sorry to hear that some people think I'm "taking up space" in the EMS field.

 

[SeeNoMore]

I think its a little absurd to give any one any grief for being in EMS who puts in the effort. Sure it would be nice if there were more jobs for people who were looking to make EMS a career (this is my intention) but that is life. Im glad for pre med EMT's, volunteers etc

It's not entirely the same, but I know many excellent people who have been in EMS for years and now plan on making another career path, nursing or RT for example, and our field certainly is better off for having had them.

Also, certainly it seems that most pre med EMTs would have valuable education that not all EMTs have. As long as this does not lead to overlooking the basics, or second guessing Medics, it is an asset.

 

[8jimi8]

Sorry, but

There is enough room for all the future doctors/ nurses... all other aspects of allied health combined in EMS.

What there isn't is MONEY for all of us. Fierce competition means you better step up to the plate if you wanna get yours.

Personally, my volunteering on the ambulance is a stepping stone to where I want to be. In the air on a helicopter.

Mad at me for keeping wages down by volunteering on my way to where I'm going?

Get active and work for wage improvements, or whatever improvements you think we need in this industry. Don't blame people for being so interested in EMS that they bust their asses to do it for a while and then stop when they get to someplace better.

I would certainly stick around on the ambulance if I got paid like a nurse. But look at my organization. They are paying WELL BELOW the minimum living wage. And that's why they have guys who do their bare minimum hours and then go to work on their days off at other agencies that pay more. That's why they have to have a train of volunteers running shifts. But its not like the tax base or the community will pay more, or contribute more.

Competition breeds evolution. I don't want someone taking care of me when I need it, if they aren't better at it than I would be. I think the bottleneck is good for the industry because everyone needs to be bringing the A game to get in on the bottom.

 

[SeeNoMore]

"Personally, my volunteering on the ambulance is a stepping stone to where I want to be. In the air on a helicopter."

+1 Does everyone want to be on a helicopter? I am beginning to see how hard it is going to be to get my shot at it.

But I also plan to volunteer for my whole life. If I get the paid position I am hoping for, I will quit my other job but not stop volunteering. I plan to work in EMS, paid or unpaid, until I am forced out by entropy.

 

[Seaglass]

I'd say the many, if not most, pre-meds are fine. But the ones that aren't tend to be very loud about how they're oh-so-educated, and give us a bad name. I've known some to do things like lecture experienced medics on elementary bio, and tell patients they shouldn't be having abnormal symptoms. Some are also quite convinced that their partial college education means they're better than everyone without a bachelor's. And some also constantly complain about how stupid, gross, or boring most calls are. One or two will literally stand there and watch others handle it until someone starts yelling at them--unless, of course, it's a call where they can be a hero, in which case they start trying to manage it. Maybe they'll make good researchers, but I can't see why they stay with EMS except for the resume thing. There's more money to be had in other part-time jobs.

Oddly enough, all of them are also huge House fans. Good show, but not a good role model for coworker and patient contact.

Are all of us like that? Of course not. It's only an issue at one service, where I think their attitudes are being reinforced by each other and supervisors who don't care. Even there, it's just a very visible group. At other services, people don't seem to cringe when I say I'm pre-med... But the ones that service deals with most sure do.

 

[8jimi8]

I will definitely continue volunteering! Wasn't meaning to sound like i'll desert EMS. EMS has always been my first love. I will definitely always continue to volunteer for the rest of my life. Who knows maybe i'll even take a part time paid position... Most of the flight nurses that I have met said that it didn't pay squat and they needed to have other jobs to so they could "afford to fly."

I'm not in it for the money anyhow, obviously!

 

[ericg533]

I'd say the many, if not most, pre-meds are fine. But the ones that aren't tend to be very loud about how they're oh-so-educated, and give us a bad name. I've known some to do things like lecture experienced medics on elementary bio, and tell patients they shouldn't be having abnormal symptoms. Some are also quite convinced that their partial college education means they're better than everyone without a bachelor's. And some also constantly complain about how stupid, gross, or boring most calls are. One or two will literally stand there and watch others handle it until someone starts yelling at them--unless, of course, it's a call where they can be a hero, in which case they start trying to manage it. Maybe they'll make good researchers, but I can't see why they stay with EMS except for the resume thing. There's more money to be had in other part-time jobs.

Oddly enough, all of them are also huge House fans. Good show, but not a good role model for coworker and patient contact.

Are all of us like that? Of course not. It's only an issue at one service, where I think their attitudes are being reinforced by each other and supervisors who don't care. Even there, it's just a very visible group. At other services, people don't seem to cringe when I say I'm pre-med... But the ones that service deals with most sure do.

Any pre-med that claims to be highly educated about medicine is crazy. We don't learn anything. A little chemistry... a little bio... A&P is not even required. Med school is where you learn the fun stuff.

 

[timmy84]

Everyone in EMS seems to be cocky (at least a good number of them). First responder to paramedic to ED nurse to ED doc to medical director. Granted I have only been exposed for a short while, but it is not something one needs to observe for a long time to pick up on. The paramedics resent the EMT's for lack of education, the paramedics think the nurses are rear end wiping pill pushers, and the RN's thing the paramedics are ambulance drivers. The paramedics and nurses think that pre-med students are trying to "be better than them". The nurses are upset the docs seem to "not care". I would actually be interested in seeing some studies done on the professional dynamics of the various care providers. It is not just in EMS either. I see the same thing on the floors. There is an intricate web of groups who get along, groups who do not, and everything in between. At the same time I see lots of nurturing between individuals, but separation in groups. Nobody can seem to agree on anything, except maybe everyone chips in to make sure the new interns don't kill anyone

 

[daedalus]

So I've read a few posts now discussing premeds in EMS and the few that I've read there is generally a negative connotation towards us. I was wondering if that holds true of most EMS workers out there?

I'm in it for the experience, and since I need to make money to pay for school anyway, why not do both at the same time? I used to volunteer in hospitals and would get to watch a lot of cases and learn from doctors shadowing in the downtime, but I feel that working as an EMT-B (on ALS trucks) gives me good exposure to the field, and that in no way does my being also a pre-med compromise patient care, professionalism, or safety.

I understand that I may have more book knowledge on certain topics than the medics, but I let the medics do their work and I know that they have more experience and skill than I do. One of the EMT-B's I work with is a MED3 (3rd year medical student) and he seems to know more than most of the medics most of the time. But that doesn't mean he bosses them around or oversteps his bounds. I've never worked on the same crew as he (we run medic-medic-basic) but from talking with the medics, they respect him as well and will let him use a lot of his skills (patient assessment, advanced skills, etc) but never if it gets in the way of patient care. As a matter of fact, the only gripe they have about him is that when he is in charge, his reports turn out to be dissertations and that they're at the ER forever waiting for him to finish writing!

One of the gripes I hear was that it "looks good" on resumes. Probably, true, but have the people who make these gripes think that perhaps the guys who are dedicating 8 years of their life to academic education and 3-7 more years after that of on the job training actually LIKE medicine enough to do it for more than just a resume padder?

I'm just wondering what you all think about premeds in EMS. General thoughts and stories welcome!

You need to get yourself and your MSIII friend in check, now. You do not know more than a medic. You are learning very general pathology and biochemistry. Medical school does not prepare you to provide emergency prehospital care. It prepares you for a residency and step I and II of the USMLE. If your MS-III friend tries to overstep his bounds, he can be fired and lose his cert. He is an EMT, not a doctor.

As I am on the "pre-med" track right now, I may have a little more basic science classes than some of my co-workers. That means nothing to them, myself, my company, and nothing to the patient or the ant crawling on the floor.

 

[HotelCo]

I'll be a Pre-med/vet by the time I finish my medic program. I plan to work as a medic through college.

 

[JPINFV]

I wouldn't necessarilly sell the basic science courses short and a lot of premeds take anatomy and physiology even though it's not required. What is important is understanding the limits of the background education, prehospital training, and more importantly, your scope of practice. For example, it doesn't matter if an unlicensed MD (say, graduate who hasn't finished their intern year and thus haven't completed step 3 of the USMLE), if the MD is practicing as a basic then he is going to be held to the scope of practice of a basic.

 

[daedalus]

I wouldn't necessarilly sell the basic science courses short and a lot of premeds take anatomy and physiology even though it's not required. What is important is understanding the limits of the background education, prehospital training, and more importantly, your scope of practice. For example, it doesn't matter if an unlicensed MD (say, graduate who hasn't finished their intern year and thus haven't completed step 3 of the USMLE), if the MD is practicing as a basic then he is going to be held to the scope of practice of a basic.

A newly minted MD or an MS-III is not going to be able to help the paramedic with dopamine drips or starting an IV or intubation. They are not going to be able to rapidly determine the patient's probable disease and start down a treatment pathway.

They will however, be able to write an exceedingly long history and physical and than ask the paramedic (attending) what to do next.

 

[JPINFV]

That's assuming that the MS3 or new MD is working with paramedics. On a basic rig, that exceedingly long history and physical (provided that it is done rapidly) may detect something that needs rapid transport or a paramedic that a regular basic wouldn't catch.

 

[MendoEMT]

While it may be fun to bash pre-meds (outletting pent up aggression towards your ER docs?) I think that it is an excellent idea for these people to get field experience. Too few in-hospital types know what it is like to hit the streets and the :censored: situations that are just part of a normal day. Maybe all pre-meds should be required to have pre-hospital EMS experience, that way there would be a better understanding of what goes on in the real world, outside of a clinical environment.

 

[daedalus]

While it may be fun to bash pre-meds (outletting pent up aggression towards your ER docs?) I think that it is an excellent idea for these people to get field experience. Too few in-hospital types know what it is like to hit the streets and the s#itty situations that are just part of a normal day. Maybe all pre-meds should be required to have pre-hospital EMS experience, that way there would be a better understanding of what goes on in the real world, outside of a clinical environment.

Actually it sounds more like resentment towards paramedics to accuse them of bashing premed basics. I am an EMT and a paramedic student and a "premed" student. I respect my medic and RN partners and *never* overstep my bounds. I have been left with egg on my face numerous times after thinking that maybe something they were doing was wrong, and boy, I was the one who turned out to be way off base. Never fall into the hole of thinking that an older RN may not know more than you just because you are a premed, resident, MD, paramedic, PA, insert whatever.

This whole discussion is absolutely trivial, because anyone in a community college to a university can claim to be pre med without lying.

 

[Chimpie]

Off topic posts have been removed and the thread has been cleaned up.

Keep it clean and on topic or it gets closed permanently.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Hey! Don't get my topic closed!

Now, most premeds do take A&P I thought. Or else the MCATs would become very difficult very quickly!

Also, daedalus, I was referring to advanced skills that basics can do here. Those I mentioned were just some of them. When we run medic-basic, the basic is usually the one that intubates, and the medic starts ACLS and the manual defib. Since we run medic-medic-basic here, usually one medic will do the acls and defib while the other does the tube, but when the Med3 guy is around, they'll often let him do the tube.