Patient refusal

[luke_31]

Just so I'm totally clear: you told the Alert and Oriented patient, who wasn't suicidal or anything, they are going to the hospital; the patient didn't want to, so you directed the MPs to place the soldier in handcuffs, and forced them to be treated and transported to the hospital. When was the last time you had the MPs forcibly restrain a soldier because you wanted to take them to the hospital, but they didn't want to go? Was that what happened a few weeks ago?
In your example, they are consenting, albeit under the potential threat of force by the MPs.

The same argument can be made in the civilian world: anytime the patient is given the choice of go to the ER and go to jail, the patient is most likely to up in the ambulance faster than the crew makes it to the truck. And we all know the legality of that choice is VERY questionable in most circumstances...

Personally, I want to see the law or military regulation that states upon enlistment, an active duty soldier loses the right to determine his or her medical care (which is exactly the situation that you are describing).

I don't blame you for wanting to see the law or reg, truthfully I've not seen the reg either, but it basically ends up being that all active duty are required to have an ER doc sign off on all refusals and if the doc determines they want to see them, then it becomes an order for them to report to the ER. If they go with the MPs or DoD cop whoever is the one to show up on the call they are in custody until they get to the ER and the doc sees the patient and pretty much sees what we were seeing on the call. I've had a few times where there was no reason for the patient to not be able to refuse, but based on how the call came in the doc wanted to talk to the patient in person to verify the story and make sure there were no life threatening issues. The core of how they are required to go to the ER pretty much involves that once we have been called the active duty members are TDY to the ER until a doc discharges them, however that may be. One of the most common reasons we get is intoxicated and unable to safely care for oneself and nobody else present able to safely care for the patient, but my personal favorite reason is getting called for a SI when it wasn't that at all and then getting forced to take the patient in because sometimes the doc won't listen to the whole story of what's going on and that there was no SI at all.

 

[johnrsemt]

Not a problem of putting them in handcuffs; Most soldiers if ordered by their NCO or an Officer will go with you willingly, better than having to go face to face with CO.

 

[DrParasite]

Not a problem of putting them in handcuffs; Most soldiers if ordered by their NCO or an Officer will go with you willingly, better than having to go face to face with CO.

Sure, because they are consenting to being treated and transported (even if they are consenting after being ordered to by an officer). It's like I said previously:

I've dealt with didn't want to piss off their Sgt so when the Sgt said your going to get checked out, that was the end of the discussion. Then again, I've had similar discussions with firefighters who didn't want to piss off their Chief, and cops who didn't want to piss off their captains. But if the patient decided during transport that they didn't want to go, I couldn't legally force them to continue to receive treatment.

My question was (which @luke_31 answered more clearly) did the patient's lose their rights when they enlisted? Meaning, did they lose their right to refuse case? it would appear that you are treating them under the doctor's orders, where unless the DOC is ok with them refusing, they could be dragged kicking and screaming to the ER (with the DoD PC or MPs as the enforcer of the doctor's orders) until the MD says they are good to go.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Well I mean they are property of the government and from the friends I have who are in the military they do not usually have a choice in a lot of topics. If they are told you are deploying in 2 weeks they can’t say no. From what I remember they also can’t refuse vaccinations. I also remember reading somewhere that the military is able to test out new/different medications/tools because they do not need patient consent since they are government property.