Parents Sue Police Over Death of Down Syndrome Man

Force doesn't have to mean physical force.
 
CFal said:
It takes quite a bit of force to subdue a 300 pound man. Your first sentence and last sentence contradict each other. Empty-hand submission techniques are appropriate for an individual actively resisting.
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Resisting what? Paying the movie ticket? He wasn't a threat to the public safety. They were advised how to deal with him, and that he wouldn't understand. They chose to go forward with the "one size fits all" technique.

And you're telling me that four police officers, who are all most likely in reasonable shape, had to crush the airway of a 300 pound man who was likely in very poor shape and uncoordinated, in order to "get him to comply"?

What a bunch of garbage. They killed him, plain and simple.
 
Farmer2DO said:
Resisting what? Paying the movie ticket? He wasn't a threat to the public safety. They were advised how to deal with him, and that he wouldn't understand. They chose to go forward with the "one size fits all" technique.

And you're telling me that four police officers, who are all most likely in reasonable shape, had to crush the airway of a 300 pound man who was likely in very poor shape and uncoordinated, in order to "get him to comply"?

What a bunch of garbage. They killed him, plain and simple.
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Overweight people are usually VERY strong in short bursts because of the extra muscle mass required to keep them selves balanced and up right. And he was resisting in leaving the movie theater he was being ejected from.

He damaged the theaters property and continued to be aggressive after he was told to leave. His caretaker said leave him be until he calms down. That is unacceptable if he is damaging property. If he continually has angry outbursts that puts himself and other in danger, he needs to be institutionalized.
 
Farmer2DO said:
Resisting what? Paying the movie ticket? He wasn't a threat to the public safety. They were advised how to deal with him, and that he wouldn't understand. They chose to go forward with the "one size fits all" technique.

And you're telling me that four police officers, who are all most likely in reasonable shape, had to crush the airway of a 300 pound man who was likely in very poor shape and uncoordinated, in order to "get him to comply"?

What a bunch of garbage. They killed him, plain and simple.
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Cool so I can just waltz into a movie theater without paying, maybe grab some snacks from the concessions stand in between hopping into different movies right? And when they call the cops for theft all they can do is ask me to go sit in their squad car, but they can't physically detain me because I'm just watching movies and not being a threat to anyone right?

Once you're in a fight with somebody who's actively resisting, moving around, fighting back, it's damn near impossible to land any sort of precision blows. It'd be real easy to for an inadvertent elbow to accidentally strike the neck when you're being tossed about by a bigger stronger attacker.

:censored::censored::censored::censored: happens. It sucks but it was an accident. Such is life. I doubt very seriously any of those cops had any intention to kill this guy. Waayyy to much paperwork and meetings with higher ups and other headaches involved lol. There's a reason why there's no such thing as "non-lethal", instead it's Less Lethal.
 
Waayyy to much paperwork and meetings with higher ups and other headaches involved lol.
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You think his death is funny? I'm betting his mother doesn't. And posts like this are exactly one of the reasons that people view us as a vocation, and not a profession. You're in the public eye. Anyone can come to this board and read our posts, and you're making a joke about the death of a Down's patient at the hands of the police.

And you're making us all look bad. Act like a mature, professional adult, because right now, I'm pretty ashamed to admit that you have anything to do with my profession.
 
Farmer2DO said:
You think his death is funny? I'm betting his mother doesn't. And posts like this are exactly one of the reasons that people view us as a vocation, and not a profession. You're in the public eye. Anyone can come to this board and read our posts, and you're making a joke about the death of a Down's patient at the hands of the police.

And you're making us all look bad. Act like a mature, professional adult, because right now, I'm pretty ashamed to admit that you have anything to do with my profession.
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He wasn't a patient when the police interacted with him
 
Everyone needs to relax a bit and think before they post, or this thread will go the way of the Dodo bird.
 
Farmer2DO said:
They restrained his hands behind his back in a face down position. In an obese person, we know this has a huge risk of causing death. That's why they teach not to do it. People die because of it.
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How else would you handcuff a person resisting arrest? I generally thought that was how LEO's are trained to do it.

Also a general note, if the man did not have downs, and a similar situation occurred would people care as much?

It was an unfortunate tragedy, that like most can be a huge training opportunity. It also highlights a big problem for LEOs dealing with special needs populations. Is it necessary to change force continuum, despite the fact they still pose the same physical threat as any other person in the population?
 
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/0...ice-department-interested-in-case--86720.html

Pre-existing conditions contributed to his death, it's certainly a tragedy but I don't see how the deputies are responsible.

The deputies then handcuffed Saylor, using three sets to accommodate his girth, while he was face down on the floor, according to the autopsy report. He became unresponsive and the deputies rolled him over. They couldn't find a pulse, so they removed the handcuffs and started chest compressions.

Saylor started breathing on his own, and still had a pulse when emergency medical workers arrived, the report says. But his heart stopped again as they tried to apply a breathing apparatus and a breathing tube, which they had difficulty inserting, according to the report. Saylor was pronounced dead at Frederick Memorial Hospital.
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Once he started having a medical emergency they started CPR and called EMS

Espo said he hadn't seen the report but that the deputies had acted improperly.

"One of the options they had was to simply tell the theater manager, 'We're just simply not going to deal with this.' They should have and could have just walked away," he said.
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One of the options they had was not doing their jobs?
 
CFal said:
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/0...ice-department-interested-in-case--86720.html

Pre-existing conditions contributed to his death, it's certainly a tragedy but I don't see how the deputies are responsible.



Once he started having a medical emergency they started CPR and called EMS


One of the options they had was not doing their jobs?
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That makes no sense. So lets leave a man destroying property just because. :censored::censored::censored::censored: no. They did their jobs and acted appropriately. Anyone who disagrees needs to learn how things work in the real world.
 
CFal said:
One of the options they had was not doing their jobs?
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The person who said that was the Family attorney of the deceased. What did you think he was going to say?
 
CFal said:
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/0...ice-department-interested-in-case--86720.html

Pre-existing conditions contributed to his death, it's certainly a tragedy but I don't see how the deputies are responsible.



Once he started having a medical emergency they started CPR and called EMS


One of the options they had was not doing their jobs?
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If the Police where out to kill him why would they have started CPR and summoned EMS? Obviously they realized that there was an issue and became a layperson and advocate for the detainee.

And I do enjoy the quote of the attorney for the deceased. PD is to decline to do their jobs when a large individual is destroying property, and a caretaker is doing nothing.

I didn't know PD had a option to not do their job. Once again though tragic and unfortunate its not an option to allow an individual destroy property whether in mental capacity to make decisions or not.
 
This also isn't like the several other cases where the person wasn't fighting back, but just not following orders. This person was aggressive.
 
CFal said:
umm... yes you can. It's called the use of force continuum.
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Your pretty incorrect on this statement, I would look at what the use of force continuum is and how it is supposed to be applied.

I am not saying the officers acted criminally or should be held liable in any way. I am not saying they should be punished or restricted at work or lose their jobs. I AM saying that there always seems to be fairly simple solutions or alternatives to the majority of these situations that would likely improve the outcome and it is a shame that when you have that many public agents responding to a scene no one could STOP, think for a minute, and come up with a better way to handle the situation.

When I do things in EMS or in the hospital system, it is not about doing anything to not be held liable and get sued, it is about doing the best for the person I am taking care of, there is a big difference.

There are many answers in our field that are not wrong, but there are usually only a few answers (or one) that result in the highest probability for an optimal outcome.

I don't like to do my job "not wrong". I like to do my job the best I can.
 
Rialaigh said:
Your pretty incorrect on this statement, I would look at what the use of force continuum is and how it is supposed to be applied.

I am not saying the officers acted criminally or should be held liable in any way. I am not saying they should be punished or restricted at work or lose their jobs. I AM saying that there always seems to be fairly simple solutions or alternatives to the majority of these situations that would likely improve the outcome and it is a shame that when you have that many public agents responding to a scene no one could STOP, think for a minute, and come up with a better way to handle the situation.

When I do things in EMS or in the hospital system, it is not about doing anything to not be held liable and get sued, it is about doing the best for the person I am taking care of, there is a big difference.

There are many answers in our field that are not wrong, but there are usually only a few answers (or one) that result in the highest probability for an optimal outcome.

I don't like to do my job "not wrong". I like to do my job the best I can.
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That's the difference between us in EMS and police, we are typically taking care of one person at a time, they are taking care of everyone.
 
I'm frankly surprised they did not use a TASER. Contrary to popular belief they don't kill people, and usually work well when somebody does not comprehend a request to comply.
 
Christopher said:
I'm frankly surprised they did not use a TASER. Contrary to popular belief they don't kill people, and usually work well when somebody does not comprehend a request to comply.
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They probably didn't have one. They were off-duty, moonlighting as security guards. Which actually makes me wonder if they were even supposed to engage him physically.
 
Aidey said:
They probably didn't have one. They were off-duty, moonlighting as security guards. Which actually makes me wonder if they were even supposed to engage him physically.
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The rules of off duty police working as security very greatly depending on the contract. A lot of the off duty police are contracted through the city/county or are authorized by the city/county to have police powers in those situations. (ie carry a gun, arrest/detain, use police radio for backup even though off duty, wear duty uniform etc.). I don't know about this situation but I do know it can very greatly. And usually if a place contracts for off duty cops it is because they want the "greater scope of practice" that a cop has.
 
Rialaigh said:
Your pretty incorrect on this statement, I would look at what the use of force continuum is and how it is supposed to be applied.

I am not saying the officers acted criminally or should be held liable in any way. I am not saying they should be punished or restricted at work or lose their jobs. I AM saying that there always seems to be fairly simple solutions or alternatives to the majority of these situations that would likely improve the outcome and it is a shame that when you have that many public agents responding to a scene no one could STOP, think for a minute, and come up with a better way to handle the situation.

When I do things in EMS or in the hospital system, it is not about doing anything to not be held liable and get sued, it is about doing the best for the person I am taking care of, there is a big difference.

There are many answers in our field that are not wrong, but there are usually only a few answers (or one) that result in the highest probability for an optimal outcome.

I don't like to do my job "not wrong". I like to do my job the best I can.
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So how should they have diffused this situation then?
 
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