Packing Heat on the Ambulance

[MMiz]

I'm not going to start World War III with asking what people think about us caring guns. We've been there and done that already.

What is your take on police carrying guns in your ambulance?
Do you search or pat down arrested / detained patients?

I've never had an issue with guns, and haven't seen a partner that has had an issue with PD carrying a gun while riding in the back.

Because I work for a private company, an do a lot of psych transfers, I do go through their personal belongings before I transport. Hospital PD usually gives the patient back their clothes (for transfer to a psych facility). I ask the patient if they mind me going through their belongings and clothing, "so that we can make sure they don't get in trouble for bringing anything bad into the facility." Several times I've caught knives and similar. We either give it to hospital security to lock up for later pick up, or we'll stick it up front during transport.

What about you?

 

[rescuecpt]

I have no problem with police officers carrying their guns on the ambulance. Usually I have them sit in the captain's chair (behind the patient's head), where the patient can't see them. My main feeling is that police officers and corrections officers have been trained to carry and use their guns, and you have to trust them just a little bit that they know what they are doing and are aware of the situation at hand. Now, if that cop or CO falls asleep, I would wake them up immediately, but that isn't a problem I've had.

 

[rescuecpt]

Answer Part II:

I don't pat anybody down. I make the police do that. I don't do any transfers, and usually the PD is present at our calls - at least the ones that sound someone dangerous and/or urgent (our cops carry O2 and AED and have all been trained in use).

 

[JJR512]

I believe they are not allowed to carry guns on our ambulances. I don't know if that's a state thing or a county thing or some made-up policy that doesn't really exist. But I was told by some of my trainers that police are not allowed to carry their guns on the ambulances. They have to either secure it in the driving compartment or have another officer follow with it, and since POs don't like to give their guns to non-POs, they always just have another officer follow with it. But that usually never actually happens, because the police, since they don't want to be separated from their gun at all, worked out a way around it. Instead of arresting someone on the scene before transport, which requires the PO to ride with the patient/suspect, they don't arrest the pt. at the scene, let him/her get transported, follow, and arrest the pt. later at the hospital. Ridiculous.

On the other hand, Maryland's main helicopter transport service is the state police's Medevac service, and the Flight Paramedics are all regular state police officers, and they are armed. Their guns are worn up on the torso somewhere, maybe under the opposite-side arm or something like that.

 

[ffemt8978]

I believe they are not allowed to carry guns on our ambulances. I don't know if that's a state thing or a county thing or some made-up policy that doesn't really exist. But I was told by some of my trainers that police are not allowed to carry their guns on the ambulances. They have to either secure it in the driving compartment or have another officer follow with it, and since POs don't like to give their guns to non-POs, they always just have another officer follow with it. But that usually never actually happens, because the police, since they don't want to be separated from their gun at all, worked out a way around it. Instead of arresting someone on the scene before transport, which requires the PO to ride with the patient/suspect, they don't arrest the pt. at the scene, let him/her get transported, follow, and arrest the pt. later at the hospital. Ridiculous.

On the other hand, Maryland's main helicopter transport service is the state police's Medevac service, and the Flight Paramedics are all regular state police officers, and they are armed. Their guns are worn up on the torso somewhere, maybe under the opposite-side arm or something like that.

The other reason for this is that if the patient is under arrest, the arresting agency is generally responsible for their medical bills. If the arrest the patient when they're discharged, the patient is responsible for the bill.

I've gone through patient's belongings looking for weapons, but I generally have a good reason (know gang member, PD didn't search that well, etc...) It's a good thing to have the police search them first, but that won't be much comfort if the patient pulls a weapon half way through the transport.

 

[Jon]

JJR512 - The Maryland State Police Aviation folks usually wear their gun in a shoulder rig... occasionally on a belt, but usually in a shoulder holster.

As for Guns on ambulances... I saw this thread cross-posted onto Officer.com from Firehouse.com. Very intresting discussion. I also was almost done my reply yesterday, and had to logoff suddenly.

I have no problem with a LEO being armed on my ambulance. an LEO's gun is part of the LEO's kit... and the LEO always comes with his stuff.

I really don't have a problem with Joe Six-Pack being armed. PA is a Shall-issue state, and many folks carry firearms. If I have you in the ambulance, I'd really like it if you would mention it to me that you have a gun on you, but I won't be too upset. I probably will disarm you, and turn the weapon over to hospital security when I get there. If I find the gun when I'm putting the cardiac monitor on you... then I'm likely to be less happy, but still won't flip out.

If you are a gang-banger, and the gun falls out of your WAISTBAND or pocket... guess what... it is going to the LEO, and the LEO is going to ask if they have a permit. But either I or the LEO will be taking the gun.

(At the local hospital... I'm in good with the security guys, espicially the senior 3-11 guy... we chat a lot... and he is an ex-cop... I'd LOVE to see his reaction to the 'here, have a gun' line)

Anyway, as for a cop with a gun in the rig - I'm more concerned about his OC spray than his firearm... the back of the rig is too close-quaters for a gunfight anyway.

 

[Guardian]

cops not allowed to carry guns on ambulance, that crazy. cops are there to protect us, how can they protect us properly without guns

 

[MMiz]

cops not allowed to carry guns on ambulance, that crazy. cops are there to protect us, how can they protect us properly without guns

I believe some may use the same argument people use for not allowing PD to carry weapons into a jail. Guns could possibly do more harm than good in the back of an ambulance. This isn't my belief, but one I've heard.

 

[gradygirl]

In Hartford, or West Hartford at least, all officers are required to surrender their weapons before they set foot into the ambulance. Usually, these are given to another officer who will escort the ambulance to the hospital. Under no circumstances whatsoever are they allowed to be armed while in the back of the truck.

 

[Wingnut]

I believe some may use the same argument people use for not allowing PD to carry weapons into a jail. Guns could possibly do more harm than good in the back of an ambulance. This isn't my belief, but one I've heard.

Jason works in the jail and has a service weapon but he can't wear it when he's on duty. However, they have to take it with them whenever they do a transport.

Also, cops here can wear their firearms on the rig if they're riding with us and I prefer they do. Most cops aren't going to pull out the gun first wherever they are, it'll be OC then tazer then gun. And like Jon said I'd be more concerned about the spray myself.

We do have the cops pat them down thoroughly if we're the least bit concerned about safety. We went on one call, it was at a halfway house for a man with leg, neck and arm pain. The guy didn't speak any english, and we think the woman who ran the place just wanted him out. The translator said he only had a few bruises but he felt like he wanted to kill people, so it immediately turned to a transport call. What got me is the medic asked one of the deputies to pat him down, then the EMT stepped in once the deputy started and patted him on the shoulder saying don't worry about it. The cop actually stopped and the medic said no he's not going until he's sure the guy is clean. Of course they found a decent sized pocket knife and a straight razor blade. But personally I wouldn't have left the building with that guy unless he had been checked.
She's a good EMT too, been on the job forever. Just another example of how complacency can be the most dangerous job hazard.

 

[rescuecpt]

In NY, the corrections officers may carry a gun off-duty if they wish to, but those who work in the jails don't wear their guns everyday in the jails. The investigators can come into the jails with guns, but there are strict rules about that too (when, where, etc), and they use hollow points to try to minimize damage if used in a jail (or anywhere).

 

[fyrdog]

In Connecticut an officer can carry a weapon in the ambulance as it is in the performance of his duties. The Enfield Police used to run the ambulance and the officers always carried. The only time I've seen an officer surrender his weapon for an ambulance ride is when he is the patient.

What do you do when the patient informs you that he has a permit to carry and is? I have had the police take the gun as a voluntary surrender which is returned to the owner upon request at the PD. Also found out once while transporting and had security at the hospital take it on arrival and return it when the patient was discharged. The patient had an isolated ankle injury. The thought here was the patient was in no danger of having an altered mental status and she was licensed and my partner and I were not. On discussion with the PD afterward was we had no right to seize as we were not in danger and we couldn't accept it either because we are not licensed to carry. If the patient was a danger it would be justified. Of course we could have called to PD but by the time the patient told us we were about 5 minutes from the hospital. One of those judgement calls.

 

[DT4EMS]

This will always be a debate.

I like the idea of an officer giving his weapon to a following car, but in most places this is unlikely. Most LEO agencies can't spare 2 officers to transport a patient.

This is another discussion that would need to be discussed among admin lines between both agencies (EMS and LEO).

I can assure you getting into a pi$$ing match about whether or not an officer CAN have his gun in an ambulnace will result in a huge mess.

Remember police officers (in the perfromance of their duty) are immune to certain laws regarding weapons (ie concealed, auto knives etc)

We must take a TEAM approach to our safety in the field. Most officers love EMS and most EMS love officers. We are more similar than most like to admit. It only takes one incident to make hard feelings that last for years.

Think of it like this..... telling an officer he can't have his weapon while on duty is like telling a medic he can't have his EKG moitor on a cardiac call.

And to make a comment on weapon in a jail setting.....

we always secured all weapons ( knives, baton, handgun) prior to entering any booking or cell areas.

 

[Guardian]

Just a quick comment, Dt4ems, i wouldn't dream of asking you or any other officer to give up his/her weapon/s. Just my opinion, not trying to spark debate.

 

[DT4EMS]

Just a quick comment, Dt4ems, i wouldn't dream of asking you or any other officer to give up his/her weapon/s. Just my opinion, not trying to spark debate.

Guardian, there was absolutely no offense taken on my part. All is good

 

[HFD EMS]

i honestly believe that there is nothing wrong with a PO carrying his/her weapon on the rig with them. That is their defense mechanism that they have been or should have been fully trained in and should have full knowledge on when and how to use the weapon and i feel safer knowing that if things really get out of hand on the rig which i have had no prior experience to...to know that we can deal with the situation if it arrises. however, i dont have to deal with many transfers. Our POs are called to every EMS call that we recieve so we know each other and have a sense of trust between us. B)

 

[dizzymedic]

Greetings,

Myself, i wouldn't dare ask an officer to remove his weapon before entering my rig. When an officer gets into my rig, it's because i have a fellon, criminal or suspect in my bus. If things get ectic, I want that officer to have his full arsenal to deal with the situation.

As far as patting down, myself I pat down or ask an officer to do before I transport due to a personal experience...I responded to an MVA in a neiboring community. The guys was extremely intoxicated and missed the turn with his Jeep and rolled over in the ditch. He was also extremely intoxicated (he punched out my partner before the officers got a chance to cuff him). We boarded him and he was restrained by the officers at the scene and an officer rode with us. When we got to the hospital, they came and got us to show us his X-Ray. There you could see it, plain as day, in his inside coat pocket, was a firearm. So I guess you have to think safety first...Like the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger...

 

[Jon]

In Hartford, or West Hartford at least, all officers are required to surrender their weapons before they set foot into the ambulance. Usually, these are given to another officer who will escort the ambulance to the hospital. Under no circumstances whatsoever are they allowed to be armed while in the back of the truck.

I'm curious - is that a company policy, local EMS office rule, or state rule?

 

[Jon]

I'm curious - is that a company policy, local EMS office rule, or state rule?

Around here, most PD's have "lock-boxes" in the sally-port or other entrance area, and officers are usually not armed in the holding/processing areas. They usually still have thier expandable baton and OC.

I had to visit the State Police last week and got asked The Question - "Do you have anything on you that I need to know about, any weapons?"

I was there to get fingerprinted for a school work was sending me to... I was mostly in uniform.

 

[rescuecpt]

I was mostly in uniform.

What does "mostly in uniform" mean?