Opinion: Should states limit entry into EMT B/Paramedic courses?

[STXmedic]

It's unfair to judge any group of people as stupid or wrong when they are only doing what they are taught by a higher medical authority, or by the course curriculum that is designed by more educated people. When they don't know better, and are taught the incorrect practices by more educated people, they can't be faulted for following their training.

Should there be limitations put to entering into EMS training? Sure, by the means of increasing standards. Require more prerequisites prior to admission. Raise the standard of teaching and make the class work more in depth, instead of teaching the material as superficially as possible. Make it more difficult to get in and get through and you'll significantly decrease the number of people wanting to be EMTs, and increase the competency of providers.

Last two sentences.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Do you really want the government deciding what careers you can train for with your own money?

Any schooling you consider should be weighed against the availability of the job market your training for. I have no sympathy for someone who buries themselves in debt in college or a trade and can't find work after. Make better life choices.

 

[mycrofft]

Harsh words. Most people do not work in the field they get their (first) degree in. And without any degree your earnings are likely to be greatly reduced.
That said, people need to stop chasing their dream into a brick wall.

 

[Veneficus]

Any schooling you consider should be weighed against the availability of the job market your training for. I have no sympathy for someone who buries themselves in debt in college or a trade and can't find work after. Make better life choices.

I would find this a viable argument if there were not doctors going bankrupt because their earnings from medicare won't cover their student debt payments.

Just like easy credit, housing bubbles, realestate bubbles, etc.

Education finance and US healthcare I suspect are the next bubbles.

The government is going to take a really large hit on these and it is nobody's fault but their own.

In education, the gov backs most loans, so unlike other forms of finance the gov assumes all risk.

Some claim the student does, but let's face it, when one party has money and the other doesn't it doesn't take much education to figure who is going to be the loser.

The only way to solve this problem is for government to only pay and back interest or offer all aid directly. The later has been done, but ultimately, the interest is still too high and the economy not stable enough. Which simply means they will absorb the loss.

While this may seem like a bad thing. It is generally people that can't otherwise afford education who will benefit.

An educated society is the first step to a wealthy society.

Healthcare is a bit more complex. But it will be a devastating event. As costs rise, people get shut out of the market, which creates a viscious circle of increased prices for those still in the market. Eventually nobody can pay and the system collapses.

At which point anyone who cannot afford to pay loses. Which will increase the demands on social programs like disability and welfare.

As every society has discovered, when your consumers out consume producers, your society collapses.

Your next depression is forthcoming. Likely due to a collapse of the healthcare industry.

As an EMS provider, the collapse of healthcare creates a big problem for you. If nobody is paying for EMS, nobody will be providing it. So unless you plan to volunteer your entire EMS career, you might want to reconsider your position on private healthcare.

One of the things most people don't seem to understand is a nations economy is not a one industry or independant issue. Like medicine it is a series of interconnected issues each depending on another.

No matter which individual card you pull, if you remove any part of a house of cards, the whole thing falls.

No need to believe me or be convinced by my statements. Wait and see.

This has been a week of quotes for me, so in keeping with it. Something from Return of the Jedi:

"Young fool, only now at the end do you realize... You will pay the price for your lack of vision."

 

[SliceOfLife]

I would find this a viable argument if there were not doctors going bankrupt because their earnings from medicare won't cover their student debt payments.

Just like easy credit, housing bubbles, realestate bubbles, etc.

Education finance and US healthcare I suspect are the next bubbles.

The government is going to take a really large hit on these and it is nobody's fault but their own.

In education, the gov backs most loans, so unlike other forms of finance the gov assumes all risk.

Some claim the student does, but let's face it, when one party has money and the other doesn't it doesn't take much education to figure who is going to be the loser.

The only way to solve this problem is for government to only pay and back interest or offer all aid directly. The later has been done, but ultimately, the interest is still too high and the economy not stable enough. Which simply means they will absorb the loss.

While this may seem like a bad thing. It is generally people that can't otherwise afford education who will benefit.

An educated society is the first step to a wealthy society.

Healthcare is a bit more complex. But it will be a devastating event. As costs rise, people get shut out of the market, which creates a viscious circle of increased prices for those still in the market. Eventually nobody can pay and the system collapses.

At which point anyone who cannot afford to pay loses. Which will increase the demands on social programs like disability and welfare.

As every society has discovered, when your consumers out consume producers, your society collapses.

Your next depression is forthcoming. Likely due to a collapse of the healthcare industry.

As an EMS provider, the collapse of healthcare creates a big problem for you. If nobody is paying for EMS, nobody will be providing it. So unless you plan to volunteer your entire EMS career, you might want to reconsider your position on private healthcare.

One of the things most people don't seem to understand is a nations economy is not a one industry or independant issue. Like medicine it is a series of interconnected issues each depending on another.

No matter which individual card you pull, if you remove any part of a house of cards, the whole thing falls.

No need to believe me or be convinced by my statements. Wait and see.

This has been a week of quotes for me, so in keeping with it. Something from Return of the Jedi:

"Young fool, only now at the end do you realize... You will pay the price for your lack of vision."

Please don't call me a fool. You have never met me nor do you know anything about me.

I disagree wholeheartedly with your opinion. I can understand your confusion on why things are the way they are. The education bubble was created by .gov securing student loans. With everyone being able to afford college at any cost, the colleges can charge whatever they want, there is no free market competition. Anyone can attend college and rack up 100 grand in debt for a major with no job market. The colleges are more then willing to take their money.

It's only recently that some people are waking up and saying maybe I should be learning a marketable skill instead of a degree in art history, criminal justice, history, etc.

So your solution, instead of removing government and having an actual market correction is to further regulate and subsidize a failing system?

You only deserve what you earn, good or bad. I pay 700 a month for healthcare insurance and I don't expect or want anyone to pay for my bills. My education has been paid for in cash which I saved over the years. Consequently, I don't want my tax dollars paying off someones student loans or medical bills. If you feel the need or guilt to do so then that is on you.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Harsh words. Most people do not work in the field they get their (first) degree in. And without any degree your earnings are likely to be greatly reduced.
That said, people need to stop chasing their dream into a brick wall.

Harsh but true. Kids need to be taught this in high school and not learn it after they are upside down in debt.

I have a degree outside of EMS that is useless. So this is coming from someone who found out the hard way. But, I dug myself out of my own hole.

 

[mycrofft]

Roger Veneficus:
"So there I was locked in an epic batlle with death". (When I use war stories, I use the ones that embarrassed me. Far more effective:blush.

Not that we need to cut the number of instructors but raise the quality. My nursing college only began requiring baccalaureate degrees of their instructors in 1982, and immediately started requiring Master's degrees. Shook some good people out, but most got with it and were still aboard. Shook out some bad ones as well.

While I like most of another reply, this phrase hits a flat note:
"Obviously there is a problem with the flooded market, but the solution isn't to get the state/government involved(as it pretty much never is), but to increase the standards, which the NR is starting to get around to doing."

Who gives any body the teeth to make change and enforce standards? Other than consensus in the field (and currently unification is anathema), it IS "the government", through qualification and denial/granting of licenses. They are involved in every operation, but at too low a level without oversight. Like voter registration in Mississippi in the Fifties.

The problem is that licenses to individuals and companies are governed apparently by local politics and corruption.

 

[SliceOfLife]

My neighbor is an 18 year old Freshman in college that's EMT certified. His EMT-B course was offered in high school for free to anyone eligable that thought it might be interesting to take. What does that say about our profession when an EMT course is a high schooler's 4th period class?

In my state we have an ambulance run entirely by volunteer high school students. The janitor drives. No I'm not kidding.

 

[Veneficus]

Please don't call me a fool. You have never met me nor do you know anything about me.

I disagree wholeheartedly with your opinion. I can understand your confusion on why things are the way they are. The education bubble was created by .gov securing student loans. With everyone being able to afford college at any cost, the colleges can charge whatever they want, there is no free market competition. Anyone can attend college and rack up 100 grand in debt for a major with no job market. The colleges are more then willing to take their money.

It's only recently that some people are waking up and saying maybe I should be learning a marketable skill instead of a degree in art history, criminal justice, history, etc.

So your solution, instead of removing government and having an actual market correction is to further regulate and subsidize a failing system?

You only deserve what you earn, good or bad. I pay 700 a month for healthcare insurance and I don't expect or want anyone to pay for my bills. My education has been paid for in cash which I saved over the years. Consequently, I don't want my tax dollars paying off someones student loans or medical bills. If you feel the need or guilt to do so then that is on you.

Firstly, I was not refering to you specifically as a fool.

Even so, being a fool is not always a bad thing. I am particularly fond of the character of the fool in King Lear. Particularly of the line:

"I am better than thou art now, I am a fool, thou art nothing."

But you offer an oversimplified explanation of a rather complex problem which you seem to think is limited in its extent. A rather common miscalculation of simple and unsecure minds.

When the top earners in society (such as doctors) are unable to effectively meet their financial obligations,( student loan payments) it goes well beyond a few college kids mistakenly thinking a degree in underwater basket weaving will allow them to earn enough money to meet any financial obligation. (like rent)

Now then, knowing you or your background is of no consequence.
You offer a simple perspective on a complex set of problems and absolute ideology. I have no use for such people other than for them to pay the bill for my service.

It is generally an accepted statement in physics that when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, both will be destroyed.

It would be a mistake to confuse my observation for opinion.

Depending on the source and how it is counted (direct service or ancillary service), between 24% and 18% of the total US economy is healthcare related.

If I might solicit your opinion?

What do you think would happen to any nation if 1/5 to 1/4 of its total economy collapsed?

Look at some recent examples around the world, what would make the consequences any different for the US?

Student loans are an equally complex issue.

The value of educated society is a statement of fact. Comparing the wealth of highly educated societies to that of uneducated societies, say for example: Sweden vs. Afghanistan, res ipsa loquitur.

If you economically remove access to education, you will be left with some level of skilled or unskilled labor. Which did work well in the industrial age.

Time and discovery has advanced the minimum knowledge required to be of minimal value in modern society. The solution of a labor force that has to support itself while attempting to pay cash for education is not sustainable.

The value of education is simply too great and the wage of uneducated labor too small. I should also mention nations that must import educated people generally pay more for the same goods and services they provide which further reduces the opportunity and quality of life for its citizens.

To my knowledge, the only nations that can actually sustain such an economy are dictatorships which subsidize the cost of services with revenue from natural resource exports. In those same societies wealth is concentrated to a handful of individuals. That sort of kills the idea of the American dream that anyone can achieve anything if they work hard.

Perhaps consider the indivual quality of life and benefit to average citizens of nations who rely on an uneducated laborforce?

In the maintenence of modern society, ideology is counter-productive. It is only by objective observation and definitive action which ultimately will decide a nation's fate.

However, as is evident in multiple societies all over today's world, when ideological factors cause inaction or eliminate potential solutions, the only possible outcome is collapse.

So, to make my opinion clear from my observation:

Anyone whos ideology prevents viable solutions or ignores complex modern realities is going to find themself in a very undesirable position in a very near future.

Finally to clarify my quote in simple words. In the part of the movie I was eluding to, a naive idealist finds himself in a position in which two of his absolute ideals conflict. He undergoes the realization that the position of absolute uncompromising beliefs cannot coexist and requires a position of accepting exceptions and compromises. Aka: The lesser of 2 evils.

Surely your background and education permits you the insight of such abstract concepts expressed in artistic work?

If my observations are erroneous, it would not be a bad thing, but I am generally told my insights are quite keen.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I find your repeated insults offending and juvenile. Are you really that insecure, is your position so weak? You quote others often. Is that because you don't have an opinion of your own?

What is your solution? Cut the BS and man up, don't hide behind snide remarks and quotes. If there was ever a thing as educated idiocy I think you might be offering up the greatest proof.

 

[Veneficus]

I find your repeated insults offending and juvenile.

I admit to being an elitist, but I think you are being overly sensitive if you find it insulting.

Are you really that insecure, is your position so weak? You quote others often. Is that because you don't have an opinion of your own?

No, I think that my opinions based on my observations are rather obvious.

Not sure if it was this post or another, but out of some strange coincidence I noticed my week has been filled with quotes that I think say what takes me many words to convey in relatively few.

What is your solution?.

To simply copy solutions that have some degree of success in other nations rather than constantly try to implement the opposite of them in spite. I don't have a particularly favorite one. All have benefits and drawbacks.

Cut the BS and man up, don't hide behind snide remarks and quotes. If there was ever a thing as educated idiocy I think you might be offering up the greatest proof.

If you say so.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Finally it's coming to a head. Refreshing from your last schizophrenic post. I do get offended easy because I expect people to behave in a civilized manner even if opinions diverge. We are part of some "type" of community and we owe each other better.

You offer no solutions except copy what other people have done with marginal success, which you freely admit. To that end you haven't even put forth specific instances of any particular health care system that is better then ours.

You consider yourself an elitist and I would agree. You are part of a small group that I have encountered often who tow-the-line but are incapable of independent thought. There is a difference between reading, regurgitating and understanding.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Finally it's coming to a head. Refreshing from your last schizophrenic post. I do get offended easy because I expect people to behave in a civilized manner even if opinions diverge. We are part of some "type" of community and we owe each other better.

You offer no solutions except copy what other people have done with marginal success, which you freely admit. To that end you haven't even put forth specific instances of any particular health care system that is better then ours.

You consider yourself an elitist and I would agree. You are part of a small group that I have encountered often who tow-the-line but are incapable of independent thought. There is a difference between reading, regurgitating and understanding.

You do know who your arguing with? Right?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Nope. Please enlighten me.

 

[ffemt8978]

 

[Veneficus]

it is not important who

Only what.

While villifying me, you will please observe that I meet none of the DSM criteria for schitzophrenia, schitzo-affective disorder, borderline personality disorder, nor depression with psychotic features and please try to do better and be more creative in your attempts.

But I accept that when a person does not wish to acknowledge arguments or positions that cause them to question their own beliefs, they often attempt to rationalize the offending position as "crazy."

It is not that I cannot come up with a specific healthcare system that is superior the the current failing US one, it is that I really don't care to hear you spew mindless propaganda at me to show me how wrong I am when I already know you are grossly uninformed.

Every healthcare insider in the US knows the current system is unsustainable and has been failing for years.

At the same time every expert who offered a workable or even definitive solution has been the target of political attacks, many by protesters who actually stand to gain the most but have been worked into a fearful frenzy mob by those who actually would have to pay for it.

Has it ever crossed your mind why wealthy Americans who complain about everything from slackers to taxes don't simply pack their bags and go to another first world country?

Because they would have more than double the tax liability and social responsibility. The US has the lowest taxes in the entire modern world by a longshot. Since wealthy people benefit most from infrastructure, cutting out every program that doesn't benefit them saves or makes them money while eliminating things that benefit you.

So you take up the standard against that which you might lose but don't have. Blissfully unaware you are 1 illness or injury from financial ruin or that you could find yourself without the ability to better your current circumstance.

Mob mentality is known for its emotionalism, not its rationality.

You have a job, with insurance, but what happens if you are seriously injured in a car accident and disabled? As soon as your sick/PTO time is up, and you go on FMLA, your employer will cease to pay its share of your healthcare insurance? Where would the difference come from? Once you lose your insurance, who will pay for your ongoing medical bills? How will you provide for your family in both the short and long term? If you have children, how will they attend college without your financial support if there are no jobs that pay a livable wage nor the ability to finance their education? Did you know the number 1 cause of divorse is financial reasons? Bet you didn't know that healthcare expenses are among the top 3 reasons for bankruptcy.

Think your relationship will survive it? What are you willing to bet?

The biological purpose of a female finding a life long mate is to reduce the energy requirements of reproduction and raising children to adulthood. The social purpose marriage is to conserve wealth within the family unit in order to elevate the social status of the offspring.

Consider all the things that could cause you or your spouse or children life long financial ruin in a moment. (like unplanned teen pregnancy or found against in a lawsuit)

These things don't affect you yet? Think you are immune to them? Perhaps these examples, but the list is infinite.

As for my lack of ability, please consider that my whole vague argument was in response to your rather dim self righteousness of not wanting to pay for slackers. All of my innuendo is specifically crafted to work on the sensitivities of mindless idealists, to which you respond to as if directed at you personally, make counter accusations and justifications in order to assuage the mental conflict created by seeing somebody use the same selfrighteous tone in order to challenge your positions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

I understand perfectly, I must be the crazy stupid one.

You have not only judged me in error, you likely don't even think you have made an error.

As for toeing the line, regurgitating, and not understanding complex interactions, your assessment in not only inaccurate, demonstrated by only by my past posts, but also your simplification of response and selective ignorance of many of the points here it is obvious you really don't know what you are talking about.

The truth and accuracy of my character is rather diametrically opposed to your assessment.

Never the less, I eagerly await to hear whatever response you must craft in order to feel better.

But I suggest it is not lack of civility and comraderie that has upset you. It is that I have called your beliefs into question instead of offering consensus on them or acceptence they are sound logically.

But I didn't call you an ignorant, spoiled slacker I don't want to pay for like you expressed in your opinion of others.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Nope. Please enlighten me.

A medical student who either has graduated or is close to graduating I can't remember which.

 

[firecoins]

Wondering what you all think.

Should states limit EMT and Paramedic course entry?

Pretty much, anyone willing to pay can get into EMT B and Paramedic school. (obviously the school, states etc want the money). But this just FLOODS the job market and makes it extremely difficult for people to get hired.

In many EMT programs in CA, they have lowered the passing rate to 75%...and I know for a fact that at one junior college they lowered the acceptable passing rate to 69%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I know because I was a volunteer instructor there, and I was against the policy)

If they did this, there would be fewer EMTs and PArmedics, thus giving those that do graduate from these courses a much better chance at finding employment. Unfortunately, most of my EMT and Paramedic friends/colleagues spend money, time and put forward many emotions to become an EMT or Paramedic yet they find NO JOBS!!!! HOW SAD.

Should it be more like law enforcement? where you are only trained if they have decided to hire you (for the most part).

Any ideas on how to fix current lack of employment in EMS?

Thank you for your opinions.

NO! No govt resretiction on who can learn this. Those who can't get jobs in EMS just wont get jobs in EMS. That seems to limit those in EMS. ANyone should be able to get the training who wants it.

 

[SliceOfLife]

It is not that I cannot come up with a specific healthcare system that is superior the the current failing US one, it is that I really don't care to hear you spew mindless propaganda at me to show me how wrong I am when I already know you are grossly uninformed.

Then why do you continue?

Has it ever crossed your mind why wealthy Americans who complain about everything from slackers to taxes don't simply pack their bags and go to another first world country?

Because they would have more than double the tax liability and social responsibility. The US has the lowest taxes in the entire modern world by a longshot. Since wealthy people benefit most from infrastructure, cutting out every program that doesn't benefit them saves or makes them money while eliminating things that benefit you.

Exactly. My ideology is that low taxes are part of the American identity. You work for it; you should be able to keep it. I don't want a socialist society that cost me half of my income. Since we are obviously polar on this issue, it's fair to say "my side" doesn't want the US to become like our neighbors. That would contradict the founding fathers and the thousands that have died fighting for those ideals.

So you take up the standard against that which you might lose but don't have. Blissfully unaware you are 1 illness or injury from financial ruin or that you could find yourself without the ability to better your current circumstance.

True, but not unaware. We hedge against this by having short/long term disability insurance, home equity and savings. Those will run out eventually and if someone still can't work there is SSDI, free health care, section 8 housing, food stamps, and bankruptcy to wipe out your debt. How would you improve on this? Do you want some type of system that maintains a persons expenses if they are no longer able to work, forever?

The biological purpose of a female finding a life long mate is to reduce the energy requirements of reproduction and raising children to adulthood. The social purpose marriage is to conserve wealth within the family unit in order to elevate the social status of the offspring.

Consider all the things that could cause you or your spouse or children life long financial ruin in a moment. (like unplanned teen pregnancy or found against in a lawsuit)

These things don't affect you yet? Think you are immune to them? Perhaps these examples, but the list is infinite.

No argument, this is called life. What should the US be doing different? I hear people talk about a safety net, beyond one's personal assets, what exactly does that entail? How much I'm I responsible for someone else or them for me?

But I suggest it is not lack of civility and comraderie that has upset you. It is that I have called your beliefs into question instead of offering consensus on them or acceptence they are sound logically.

I extend this to you as well. You have no problem slinging mud but somehow you get upset when it comes back at you. The schizophrenic comment was at one of your posts not at you personally.

Solutions not criticisms and try to have an open mind.

 

[SliceOfLife]

A medical student who either has graduated or is close to graduating I can't remember which.

I see. Well congrats to you Veneficus and good luck in your endeavors.