Officer points gun at firefighter responding to a call

[OfficerEvenEMT]

I don't think the LEO did anything very horrible by approaching the vehicle with his gun drawn. He wasn't angry, he was in control of his emotions, and he put it away once it was clear that the driver was a FF on the way to a call.

 

[medic417]

I don't think the LEO did anything very horrible by approaching the vehicle with his gun drawn. He wasn't angry, he was in control of his emotions, and he put it away once it was clear that the driver was a FF on the way to a call.

Exactly. In rural areas where back up is a long time coming it is not unheard of officers approaching cars with guns out especially when the idiot appeared to be running.

 

[OfficerEvenEMT]

Exactly. In rural areas where back up is a long time coming it is not unheard of officers approaching cars with guns out especially when the idiot appeared to be running.

To be fair, however, I truly believe the FF when he said he thought the LEO was joining them on the call. That sometimes does happen.

 

[krtemt]

First of all I think that the law suit is simply ridiculous. Coming from a criminal justice background going into volunteer fire/ems i can understand both sides of the story.

Lets start with the cop. He was already investigating a call about a black dodge charger that was impersonating a police officer. When he pulled the u-turn and began to accelerate he should of turned on his lights and sirens then, not when he gets close to the vehicle he passed. Secondly crossing the line while cresting a hill is a no no last I knew. great way to get yourself killed. following the ff thru town I would of turned off the siren when i noticed that the vehicle I was pursuing stopped speeding, started using turn signals, and stopping at stop signs. When they got to the fire station I agree with the police officers tactics a little bit. I wouldnt have told the suspect to get back into his vehicle, where he could potentially have access to a weapon, I would of had him lay on the ground. But he was wearing a shirt with what looked like a badge on the chest. I didnt see anything on the back of it saying he was a volunteer fire fighter. Which would lend credence to the officers assumption that he was the car from the call earlier. The cop did holster his weapon once he realized it was a fire fighter, but when he approached the car he did the right thing. Suspect was fleeing apprehension, failed to yield, Officers safety is the number one priorty. As for those of you saying but he pulled into a fire station, I have seen people running from the cops who did everything the ff did, pull into a hospital then take off running on foot.

Now for the ff. Running code/hot for a non emergency code is against his department policies. He is in a POV with what looked like a dash light. I am not sure what oregons law is for volunteers and having lights but in texas the pov needs to have 360 degree visibility for emergency lights. The lights have to be visible up to 300-500 hundred feet. Plus the firefighter needs to have displayed on his vehicle fireman, firefighter, or a departmental decal(thats from my chief). I did not see any of those on the ff vehicles. Lastly the ff was in a pov. I know my chief has stated, along with the DPS captain for my area, that even though our pov's are considered emergency vehicles in Texas if we do not yeild right of way for marked police officers then we are going to be in trouble, because at the end of the day we are still in our POVs.



So with that said the blame falls on both the cop and the ff. Both parties acted in a way that is against the best interest of the public. Do I think things could of/should of been handled differently yes, do I think the fire fighter has a valid law suit, no. This is an internal matter for both agencies. Unless the cop was monitoring fire dept. radio channels then he would not of know about the fire call. He should be disciplined for initiating a pursuit without activating his warning equipment. The ff, and the entire department, needs to be disciplined if they are violating departmental policy by using lights and sirens for non emergency calls.


For those of you wondering I have been a volunteer firefighter for about 6 months and today is the first time I used my warning lights. I had a local SO get behind me running code and I did yield the right of way.

 

[OfficerEvenEMT]

Now for the ff. Running code/hot for a non emergency code is against his department policies. He is in a POV with what looked like a dash light. I am not sure what oregons law is for volunteers and having lights but in texas the pov needs to have 360 degree visibility for emergency lights. The lights have to be visible up to 300-500 hundred feet. Plus the firefighter needs to have displayed on his vehicle fireman, firefighter, or a departmental decal(thats from my chief). I did not see any of those on the ff vehicles. Lastly the ff was in a pov. I know my chief has stated, along with the DPS captain for my area, that even though our pov's are considered emergency vehicles in Texas if we do not yeild right of way for marked police officers then we are going to be in trouble, because at the end of the day we are still in our POVs.

While your chief is likely correct regarding your jurisdiction it doesn't apply across the board. Without knowing more I would assume that the FF had his vehicle appropriately marked and had his flashing light correctly placed. Using the light while on a non-emergency call, however, is a no-no. What would have fixed this entire situation is for communication between LE and FD to be established. The LEO could have radioed into his dispatch and asked if there is a call-out for the FF in progress. That would have helped a lot.

 

[MagicTyler]

I think there needs to be a policy so that police can communicate with any emergency vehicle. There should be a way for dispatch to contact the vehicle based on the plates.

 

[OfficerEvenEMT]

I think there needs to be a policy so that police can communicate with any emergency vehicle. There should be a way for dispatch to contact the vehicle based on the plates.

Agreed. He was able to see the plates during the chase and radioed that to his control. They could have easily punched it into a computer and seen it was registered to a FF and also been able to report that there was a call-up in progress. The fact that this is 2012 and isn't happening is a very bad thing.

 

[MMiz]

Agreed. He was able to see the plates during the chase and radioed that to his control. They could have easily punched it into a computer and seen it was registered to a FF and also been able to report that there was a call-up in progress. The fact that this is 2012 and isn't happening is a very bad thing.

Maybe you have some amazing dispatchers where you work. I thought ours were pretty stellar, and they had lots of fancy equipment, but it is my experience that working with multiple agencies simultaneously isn't as easy as flipping on a radio or punching something into a computer.

I can't find error in how the officer acted. He was provided information about a criminal suspect driving a similar car, attempted to stop the fire fighter, the fire fighter continued to the fire house where the officer approached the car as if the driver was a typical suspect.

What I can't understand is how both of them couldn't put this behind them. I'm not sure anyone is served by the fire fighter filing a $50,000 claim over the incident.

 

[OfficerEvenEMT]

Maybe you have some amazing dispatchers where you work. I thought ours were pretty stellar, and they had lots of fancy equipment, but it is my experience that working with multiple agencies simultaneously isn't as easy as flipping on a radio or punching something into a computer.

I can't find error in how the officer acted. He was provided information about a criminal suspect driving a similar car, attempted to stop the fire fighter, the fire fighter continued to the fire house where the officer approached the car as if the driver was a typical suspect.

What I can't understand is how both of them couldn't put this behind them. I'm not sure anyone is served by the fire fighter filing a $50,000 claim over the incident.

I realize that it isn't happening, which is the sad part. It's 2012. When you walk into the control/dispatch of my department you see wall to wall computers, radios, boards with flashing lights, etc. It simply shouldn't be this hard for a rural area that likely has a low EMS/FD call volume to coordinate with LE. They each build their systems as isolated silos and don't even consider that they need to work together. It's pathetic.

The LEO didn't do much in the way of error. Neither did the FF for that matter. Neither had any criminal intent, mens rea as they called it in the academy. Is there strict liability for not stopping for a LEO with lights/sirens on while you are responding to an EMS/FD call? I'm not sure- that's a question for a lawyer and judge. All I can say if that this could have been severely deescalated had the LEO made a call to dispatch and dispatch being aware of what's happening in their county. Being unaware of what's happening in your county when you are a dispatcher ought to be criminal.

 

[medic417]

To be fair, however, I truly believe the FF when he said he thought the LEO was joining them on the call. That sometimes does happen.

Whether you believe him or not he broke the law by failing to pull over. He at that point is a criminal until proved otherwise. He should be glad his tires didn't get shot out. If he was legit he should have been able to call dispatch to patch through to the cop and let him know he was responding to a call..

 

[lightsandsirens5]

Being unaware of what's happening in your county when you are a dispatcher ought to be criminal.

Oh how I wish it was.....

 

[DesertMedic66]

Whether you believe him or not he broke the law by failing to pull over. He at that point is a criminal until proved otherwise. He should be glad his tires didn't get shot out. If he was legit he should have been able to call dispatch to patch through to the cop and let him know he was responding to a call..

If I have PD following me (or any emergency vehicle) as I am going code, I don't pull over and I don't contact dispatch.

 

[medic417]

If I have PD following me (or any emergency vehicle) as I am going code, I don't pull over and I don't contact dispatch.

Perhaps some day you will make the news so we can discuss your arrogance to.

When in a pov all it takes is quick radio or cell call to dispatch to clear things up. I hope the cop counter sues for the mental trauma caused by having to drive fast which put him in danger.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Perhaps some day you will make the news so we can discuss your arrogance to.

When in a pov all it takes is quick radio or cell call to dispatch to clear things up. I hope the cop counter sues for the mental trauma caused by having to drive fast which put him in danger.

Arrogance? EVOC training for the company says if we are going code 3 and there is someone else going code behind us do not pull over. If they need to pass you then they will pass you.

PD does this extremely often and there are no issues. Fire department does not usually pass us.

 

[medic417]

Arrogance? EVOC training for the company says if we are going code 3 and there is someone else going code behind us do not pull over. If they need to pass you then they will pass you.

PD does this extremely often and there are no issues. Fire department does not usually pass us.

You in your pov? If not doesn't apply this discussion. If yes then your service has misapplied what evoc trains.

 

[DesertMedic66]

You in your pov? If not doesn't apply this discussion. If yes then your service has misapplied what evoc trains.

Not in POV. Just stating that when going code we don't pull over for PD.

 

[medic417]

Not in POV. Just stating that when going code we don't pull over for PD.

You are in an official vehicle. The guy in discussion was not. Big difference.

 

[DesertMedic66]

You are in an official vehicle. The guy in discussion was not. Big difference.

If it is in the DMV as an emergency vehicle and it has insurance as an emergency vehicle then it legal to go code 3. Code 3 = not pulling over (I've never seen any vehicle going code 3 pull over for another vehicle going code).

 

[medic417]

If it is in the DMV as an emergency vehicle and it has insurance as an emergency vehicle then it legal to go code 3. Code 3 = not pulling over (I've never seen any vehicle going code 3 pull over for another vehicle going code).

This guy was in pov not in emergency vehicle. Was not registered as emergency vehicle. And the amount of speed over the speed limit shows his service either needs to discipline him or if no policy they need to make some policy's.

 

[DesertMedic66]

This guy was in pov not in emergency vehicle. Was not registered as emergency vehicle. And the amount of speed over the speed limit shows his service either needs to discipline him or if no policy they need to make some policy's.

But he had state issued EMS plates....