NYPD vs FDNY

[DesertMedic66]

Most cities fire workload is about 20% of EMS workload. How many fires realistically are there? How many HazMats?

Everyone knows there isn't too many fires (aside from the summertime) or HAZMATs. Just pointing out that Fire does more then EMS. (all my opinions are based on my area where fire responds to every medical call). If fire drops medical then yes EMS would probably be more busy and do more. But for right now fire does more work.

 

[bstone]

Here's a link to FDNY's training academy:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/fire_academy/fa_index.shtml

The website is really lousy and some of the links didn't work, as well as being really sparse on the info.

 

[DesertMedic66]

And honestly, each and every item you posted there, EMS will go to as well. HAZMAT spill? EMS is there. MVC? EMS is there. Fire? EMS is there. Yet, I don't have fire show up on a huge portion of my medical calls.

MVC EMS is not always there. Fires? You mean EMS actually respond to fires in your area? The ambulance is not called to a fire unless a firefighter/bystandard goes down and wants to be transported to the hospital (for my area). Fire will do medical stuff on scene, if the patient needs or wants to go to the hospital then the ambulance is called to transport.

 

[usalsfyre]

MVC EMS is not always there. Fires? You mean EMS actually respond to fires in your area? The ambulance is not called to a fire unless a firefighter/bystandard goes down and wants to be transported to the hospital (for my area). Fire will do medical stuff on scene, if the patient needs or wants to go to the hospital then the ambulance is called to transport.

That's the problem, this is all region dependent. In my service area we get fire if it's a pin in or we need an LZ. That's it, so most MVCs have only EMS and PD. We respond to all structure fires and multiple department wildfires. So our workload is quite a bit heavier than the paid FD here.

 

[Aidey]

Clearly they didn't train long and hard. They dropped a car on a guy. FD was taking a long time to properly do it. ERU futzed it up.

This is one of the things I seen pointed out numerous times in the comments on this incident. Even going with the assumption that the FD had determined it was a non-viable patient air bag operations always seem to take forever. I don't think I have yet to see them used efficiently.

And I'll reiterate:

There is no reason why EMS cannot be taught extrication in school, ambulances equipped with basic hydraulic tools, and safety gear put on.


Some agencies do it already, so if you're saying it can't be done, you're wrong.

I'm with Linuss on this one. There is no reason that extrication and firefighting have to go together. Or any of the other various specialized types of rescue training. I've found who does what varies significantly by region and demand.

 

[DesertMedic66]

That's the problem, this is all region dependent. In my service area we get fire if it's a pin in or we need an LZ. That's it, so most MVCs have only EMS and PD. We respond to all structure fires and multiple department wildfires. So our workload is quite a bit heavier than the paid FD here.

Fire doesn't respond to medical calls in your area? If your system is ran like that then yes it seems as if EMS does have a heavier workload.

As for my area fire responds to anything that EMS responds to along with alot more. So fire has a much heavier workload then EMS here.

 

[usalsfyre]

Fire doesn't respond to medical calls in your area? If your system is ran like that then yes it seems as if EMS does have a heavier workload.

As for my area fire responds to anything that EMS responds to along with alot more. So fire has a much heavier workload then EMS here.

Only echo level calls, as a BLS first response.

Why run fire to low level calls? Seems like a massive waste of resources.

 

[jona2125]

Linuss, this "ERU" is a group that has unknown training, unknown certification and unknown skill. The FD, however, has well known training, well known certification and well known skill.

If I needed someone to pull me from under a car I would want the FD to do it.

I agree. Fire has proper available equipment for this. The ESU tries to keep up with that but it has not been the greatest success. I really hate seeing a mash up of out of place departments. Fire and EMS = Decent. Police and EMS = Bad juju. The huge point that should be clear from this video is that EVERYONE has a specific JOB to do. They should focus. Police should worry about scene safety, fire should worry about getting access to the patient, and EMS should worry about patient care. That's how it really should have been handled.

 

[bstone]

The one thing we haven't brought up (I don't think) is ICS. Who was the Incident Commander? Why wasn't that chain of command followed?

 

[usalsfyre]

Fire and EMS = Decent. Police and EMS = Bad juju

This message brought to you by the IAFF...

Care to elaborate on this totally unsubstantiated statement?

 

[Shishkabob]

The huge point that should be clear from this video is that EVERYONE has a specific JOB to do. They should focus. Police should worry about scene safety, fire should worry about getting access to the patient, and EMS should worry about patient care. That's how it really should have been handled.

Except the ESUs job IS extrication / rescue and not traffic control, so that throws that argument right out.




Anyways, everyone is missing the main thing about this thread:

Some old bat sucked at driving that lead to a situation that cost someone their life, and all she gets is a slap on the wrist. That should irk everyone. Evil old ladies. It's a darn conspiracy.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Only echo level calls, as a BLS first response.

Why run fire to low level calls? Seems like a massive waste of resources.

It stops the clock and that's all the public cares about. Same reason we run code 3 to every 911 call. Public wants us there fast. If we don't get there fast enough then we can lose our contract.

 

[Aidey]

It stops the clock and that's all the public cares about. Same reason we run code 3 to every 911 call. Public wants us there fast. If we don't get there fast enough then we can lose our contract.

Eventually we're going to have to say the hell with what the public cares about and do what is right and scientifically proven to work.

Look at the mess we're in with antibiotic resistant bacteria because the uneducated public demanded antibiotics for everything and Doctors played along. Occasionally the public has to be told they're wrong and they need to suck it up and deal with it. We're educated*, the public is not.

*In theory.

 

[Bullets]

FDNY call stats

EMS runs in 2010-1.4 MILLION
Fire runs in 2010-26, 119

Is there any doubt what gets more use, who works harder and longer?

In NJ, Extrication is an EMS gig in most places. My town has on squad that handles it, they have a truck with all their Cutting tools, every squad member has turnout gear, and fire only goes to MVCs for minor fluids and fire suppression.

Engine on an EMS call----Justifying a fire district, justifying taxes, justifying jobs. Downsize down size downsize, convert firehouses to EMS houses. Replace engines with Ambulances. Make Paramedic a promotion to FF, not the other way around.

 

[jona2125]

This message brought to you by the IAFF...

Care to elaborate on this totally unsubstantiated statement?

I'm just saying each division should stay within their own division. Fire doing EMS is for money saving but I'm not going either way with that statement. EMS doing Fire doesn't make any sense. Police doing either of those duties is just as confusing. There is a difference between police being a first response and them being a dedicated team. This whole subject is a can of worms and I knew that. But I'm not here to start a argument on what is and what should be. I like how most of everything is setup. The main point was for this video and how when there are these special populations of multi task oriented companies, that they should at least work together better. This is just as much a turf war with NYFD vs NYPD ESU as Fire Departments with EMS vs separate EMS & Fire is. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to justify which is better at all or the reverse. Just creating conversation on how you can take what you learn and apply it later. Especially regarding what happened in the video.

My goal is to be FireMediCop. When I get there, I won't be going farther than first response skills if I'm on duty as a Cop and have a gunshot victim, same with a fire. If I work fire im not going to go out restraining people, and if I'm a medic I'm not worried about anything but my patient. That's how it should be dealt with. But that's my opinion and the world's full of 'em. I'll leave it at that.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Eventually we're going to have to say the hell with what the public cares about and do what is right and scientifically proven to work. .

I honestly don't see that happening with a private EMS company. If we don't give the public what they want then they won't want us. Meaning we lose our contract meaning we lose our jobs. Then the town will give another ambulance service the contract. We are here to basically serve the public. If they don't get what they want then we are gone.

 

[Anthony7994]

And to do all of that is going to cost alot of money. Along with medics and EMTs saying "you want us to do extrication, well then I better be getting a nice pay raise".

Volunteer firefighters don't seem to complain, and I wouldn't either knowing I could help a patient even further than I could before. I'm for it.

 

[MrBrown]

Volunteer firefighters don't seem to complain, and I wouldn't either knowing I could help a patient even further than I could before. I'm for it.

Because firefighting for volunteers is a hobby, just like volunteer Ambulance Officers ... it's something they do in their spare time.

 

[JPINFV]

Eventually we're going to have to say the hell with what the public cares about and do what is right and scientifically proven to work.

Look at the mess we're in with antibiotic resistant bacteria because the uneducated public demanded antibiotics for everything and Doctors played along. Occasionally the public has to be told they're wrong and they need to suck it up and deal with it. We're educated*, the public is not.

*In theory.

1. Any response time after 4 minutes is purely customer service.

2. Customer service is important. In the end cities and health care facilities, via tax dollars and insurance dollars, are consuming the services produced by their contract provider. Make them unhappy and they find someone else to provide the service.

3. Comparing this to antibiotics doesn't really work. Reasonable response times does not cause IVs to stop working. Similarly, response times does not necessarily mean transport, leading to backup further down stream.

4. Community paramedicine (probably one of my most favorite sessions at EMS World Expo). Communities and hospitals will support it because of the efficiency it brings downstream and the service aspect brought to the citizens.

 

[SHFD]

And I'll reiterate:

There is no reason why EMS cannot be taught extrication in school, ambulances equipped with basic hydraulic tools, and safety gear put on.


Some agencies do it already, so if you're saying it can't be done, you're wrong.

Settle down there, hero. I don't know how it works in other states, but around here EMS as a separate entity is becoming more obsolete, as many FD's are beginning to do all their own EMS. It makes the most sense. To say that FD's are not at all patient centered is ignorant, FD's have evolved over the years and although some old Jakes like to resist it, it's becoming increasingly EMS focused. I'm a volly FF, and a Private agency EMT so I get both sides of it. FF's don't go to the Academy just to wet their willy on the red stuff, we learn extensive rescue techniques and, and that goes back to the Firehouse where FD's train train train to perfect them. On top of that, there aren't a lot of FD's that will take someone who isn't a basic, or in some cases a medic.

You know those big red trucks with all the woo woo's? These days they carry a whole lot more than hoses and nozzles. Some go so far as to equip ALS engines, but just about any FD has apparatus designated for rescue scenes. They come equipped with all manner of equipment one would need, and a full crew to boot.

Does it really make sense that FD's should actually just devolve and try to stuff all that equipment on to an ambulance? Not to mention the man power issue. Sure, you can recall an instance where 2 people can extricate someone but anyone with a brain will admit that it is far from ideal, because scenes become more complicated than that. Calling an additional ambulance for resources for one pt instead of an engine company is ridiculous.

The biggest roadblock to this concept is funds. I don't care what XYZ agency does, mine runs BLS in vans. We don't have enough room in them as is, no we are not carrying cutters and spreaders on our trucks, not even in the box trucks. Who is going to pay for this training either? Is my company going to put me through the academy to learn how to use these tools? Some agencies are stingy about reimbursing employees for coned, much less superfluous rescue training that the FD already has, and has been doing for years.

EMS has enough trouble getting over the ambulance driver image, I think it needs to stick to what it's ultimate purpose is: Safely treat and transport your patient to the hospital. More technical, and complicated tasks should stay in the realm of FD's. I won't deny that some FD's have to justify their budgets these days, and that's because there aren't as many fires as there used to be. But just as EMS has evolved from being taxi drivers, to advanced care, FD's roles have evolved. If anyone doesn't fit into this picture, it's police.