Nurse vs paramedic

[Vetitas86]

The issue is, no matter how you slice it, you can't get the same requirements in a certificate that you can in a true, four year degree. It's like saying that docs are just as educated as PAs.

I think what they've brought up is legit. There's needs to be a working degree in EMS.

 

[Tigger]

The issue is, no matter how you slice it, you can't get the same requirements in a certificate that you can in a true, four year degree. It's like saying that docs are just as educated as PAs.

I think what they've brought up is legit. There's needs to be a working degree in EMS.

There are degrees for EMS though, there's even Baccalaureate degrees. The problem is that in many places they are no more useful than certificates. I don't think it's much of stretch to say that in 9/10 paramedic positions in this country that it doesn't matter if you have an Associates in paramedicine (or whatever they call it) or a certificate. Some states require it, but until all of them do, it does not make often make sense for many to attend a college to get their degree. If getting an AA takes two years and a certificate takes one, why would one not take the year long course and start making money a year earlier if financial sustainability is a concern?

There is a framework in this country for EMS to become part of the higher education system, but there is no motivation for many to participate in it.

 

[MS Medic]

The issue is, no matter how you slice it, you can't get the same requirements in a certificate that you can in a true, four year degree. It's like saying that docs are just as educated as PAs.

I think what they've brought up is legit. There's needs to be a working degree in EMS.

There is no difference as far pt care goes between a nurse with an AA and a BSN. The BSN allows for opportunities in areas of management, administration, and teaching. I was also only referring to situations directly associated with pt care. Sorry for any confusion

 

[sir.shocksalot]

I was required to take the same A&P courses an ARN course requires. In fact, because I went to school at a university hospital, my lab was done with a cadaver. But even the guys who went to a CC sat in the same classes as nursing students. But rather than studying algebra and sociology, we covered patho and disease processes.

With that said, I had an AA before getting into EMS and am 2 semesters away from a BS in health science. I just get sick of all this crap that nurses have more education because they went to a degree program and we have a certificate program.

We are talking in general terms here. Kudos to you for attaining a real education and having a strong background in the sciences! However, you are far from normal, many paramedics are not required to have any A+P education at all, or just a brief intro to A+P. Graduates of the worst nursing schools in the country have to have at least A+P, micro etc. Graduates of the worst paramedic programs in the country might know roughly enough to apply the protocols to patients.

I can only speak locally in saying that Paramedic schools in the Denver/Metro area have actually lowered admission requirements, when I went 1 year of A+P was required for admission, now it's down to 1 semester intro to A+P class. EMS may be the only profession (at least in my neck of the woods) lowering our educational standards.

As a whole, nurses are far more educated than paramedics. There are examples of nurses who don't know their head from a hole in the ground, just as there are examples of medics who can't find their way out of a paper bag. But profession-wide paramedics are sadly and drastically under-educated.

 

[Chrashley]

Here's how I feel about it. If you make the cert or degree or license so easy that everyone can get one or you have no means of enforcing it's requirements it will cheapen the trade. I go thru this in the HVAC trade now. None of my education or certs mean anything because it's not regulated that you have them to do any work. So on paper I'm worth a bunch but since there is no one to govern anything then they are worthless. So am I in favor or a more strict degree and governing system...hell yeah I am. Cause that means that all the blood sweat and tears I put into my degree are worth something.

 

[EpiEMS]

Remember, though, even most of the education and certification of physicians is primarily a solely private function — the strength of regulation has evolved over time.

 

[Vetitas86]

There is no difference as far pt care goes between a nurse with an AA and a BSN. The BSN allows for opportunities in areas of management, administration, and teaching. I was also only referring to situations directly associated with pt care. Sorry for any confusion

For what its worth, I've seen a few programs devote more clinical and didactic time during the BSN vs. the AA. Shrug. May not be everywhere, and that wouldn't particularly surprise me.


And yeah, from what I've seen, even medics are undereducated. I've seen a few rely way too heavily on cookbook medicine. And having less educational requirements means we're going to be stuck in the low paying tech ghetto for a while. It's part necessity of actually being able to know what's going on from a medical standpoint and partially public perception.

Other specialties in allied health have more education and have used that as leverage in pushing for more respect and pay. Nursing is case in point.

Also case in point is emergency med residencies for docs. 3-4 years after med school to even get a handle on a lot of things that they do and why. Granted, I think 99% of that would be completely unnecessary for medics, but the point remains. In patient care, knowledge shouldn't be an option. And honestly, I don't see where all the backlash against furthering education in EMS comes from as far as those who work it.

 

[MS Medic]

Well then it is an interesting dichotomy that I live in an state with one of the most functionally backwards EMS system and then seems, based on what you guys are saying, to have a relatively progressive education system because A&P I and II are required here and everyone I know that is dual certed, including a woman who was a CC and ER nurse for close to twenty years before going into EMS says nursing school is a joke compared to medic school.

 

[Chrashley]

But isn't some of that because of time frame? It's 4 years to get an RN, and 14 months to get medic. And it's all got to be pretty much the same stuff (I know not exactly but you know what I mean)

 

[MS Medic]

It might be, I'm not dual certed myself so I can't really say. I'm only going by what I'm told by those who are. If it makes any difference, there is a medic to RN bridge program that lasts 9 mths in this state but the nurses aren't allowed to bridge over due to educational reasons. Don't know it that means anything though.

But if you count basic school as a prereq which is where all the fundamentals of trauma care are taught, then that plus A&P I and II and the 12 mths of medic school, you end up with four full semesters of school. Ours is strictly medical related without any of the humanities or electives.

 

[NYMedic828]

But isn't some of that because of time frame? It's 4 years to get an RN, and 14 months to get medic. And it's all got to be pretty much the same stuff (I know not exactly but you know what I mean)

Its a whole bunch of factors and it varies depending on where you are.

Nursing is a degree program because its required by every place of employment to be a registered nurse and a requirement of that is official schooling as a nurse with a degree to prove it, followed by NCLEX testing to prove it.

Nursing has a national unified body where as EMS has next to nothing. Every region does what it wants and dictates what a paramedic can do.

In one state you can tie a patients shoes but in another state you can do a chest tube and emergency tracheotomy.


Skills wise, A paramedic can do more than a nurse. If a nurse can read an ECG, its because she learned to do it on her own. A nurse cannot intubate. A nurse cannot perform surgical procedures such as an emergency tracheotomy, thoracic decompression, chest tube, needle crichothyrotomy.

Most skills past an IV/pushing meds in the hospital setting are handled by doctors and their assistants.

Knowledge wise, it depends where you get your schooling but as far as practical job related knowledge goes its pretty much the same. Sure you can say a nurse spent more time in a pharmacology class or took microbiology, but lets be realistic, after a year no one remembers any of that stuff unless they strive to maintain it on their own.

Being a good nurse/doctor/paramedic all comes with experience. No one knows everything when they finish school you learn as you go. Any time you encounter a medication or a disease or something you don't know about, you make it an opportunity to do research and learn. Over time you will grow into an experienced provider. But at the same time, there are plenty of folks on all sides who could care less to learn past what their job requires.

The problem with pre-hospital medicine is that we are a young service compared to nursing. Nursing has been in the game a LONG time. We currently have a few 100,000 people who have no means of relating to one another outside of a place like this forum. In order for that to happen, the entire country would have to decide to wise up and do something or the federal government would need to step in somehow. To randomly tell a few 100,000 people that they need to get a 4 year degree by 2020 or they cannot continue in their profession will never happen.

At some point with the rising cost of hospital healthcare, EMS will have to advance as a service. Its a long road but an inevitable one.

 

[Scott33]

Skills wise, A paramedic can do more than a nurse.

I think it may have been more accurate to have said a paramedic can perform more paramedic skills than a nurse. And even that could be argued.

A nurse cannot intubate. A nurse cannot perform surgical procedures such as an emergency tracheotomy, thoracic decompression, chest tube, needle crichothyrotomy.

Except for those nurses who can.

 

[smallsislost]

id go for the medic career. most state have a aramedic to rn corse that isn't as bad as youd think.

 

[Vetitas86]

There are 4 year degrees for EMS, but they're not professional degrees. Pro degrees exist in other fields.

From what I've seen, most of the BS EMS degrees are just that. BS. They train management and aren't focused on the practical side.

There does need to be a national effort to standardize practice. It shouldn't be dependant on region and state. And I think that's part of the reason why EMS is so divided, becuase skill sets and training differ so much.

 

[Tigger]

Knowledge wise, it depends where you get your schooling but as far as practical job related knowledge goes its pretty much the same. Sure you can say a nurse spent more time in a pharmacology class or took microbiology, but lets be realistic, after a year no one remembers any of that stuff unless they strive to maintain it on their own.

Who knows more about how the human body works, which being the most fundamental component of medicine, seems important? The RN with 2 semesters of A and P, microbio, at least some chemistry, and a semester of psych; or the paramedic with hopefully a semester of A and P prior to enrolling in medic school.

There are 4 year degrees for EMS, but they're not professional degrees. Pro degrees exist in other fields.

From what I've seen, most of the BS EMS degrees are just that. BS. They train management and aren't focused on the practical side.


There does need to be a national effort to standardize practice. It shouldn't be dependant on region and state. And I think that's part of the reason why EMS is so divided, becuase skill sets and training differ so much.

If you get a BS in EMS, that's a professional degree. In addition to getting a bachelors, one also gets a paramedic certifcate, i.e. a license to practice. Here is a sample curriculum of a BS in EMS:

http://www.southalabama.edu/ems/bachelor.html

We also need management components in our degrees. Not everyone can be a field provider nor do they need to be. One of EMS's biggest problems is a lack of progressive management, which may be partially attributable to managers being senior and often washed up former field personnel. Learning to manage people in the context of an industry is not BS, it's how professions mature.

It would be nice if EMS had a national standard to be sure, and it will have to happen for the industry to become a profession. But I am not sure I see EMS as being divided. The vast majority of providers are content to meet the present standards and will not exceed them until it's a mandate. This is nothing new, it happens in every profession. There are of course some of us that are calling for change, but until our voice is heard we are still doing the same job to the same standard.

 

[DPM]

I've just read this ENTIRE thread and not one person has mentioned who would win in a fight. Let's get out priorities straight here people

 

[Scott33]

Your average medic could kick your average nurse's arse

 

[NYMedic828]

Your average medic could kick your average nurse's arse

The nurse just has to take the high ground up a flight of stairs. Odds are the medic will be so tired by the time he reaches them he will just collapse.

 

[Shishkabob]

Who knows more about how the human body works, which being the most fundamental component of medicine, seems important? The RN with 2 semesters of A and P, microbio, at least some chemistry, and a semester of psych; or the paramedic with hopefully a semester of A and P prior to enrolling in medic school.

Apples to oranges.

How about the states that require the same pre-reqs from Paramedics and RNs?

How about medics who do it on their own?



I got in to this debate with a nurse a few months ago. She thought she had more schooling because she had a 2 year degree, until I clarified that Paramedics also have 2 years of education, just more specific in nature. Her fallback defense? "Well, I also have pre-reqs"

My response? "Cool, so doing spreadsheets on a computer makes you a better healthcare provider?"





To the OP: Realize that EMS tends to be a young persons job, and you won't see too many Paramedics in their 40's and beyond, having done it for decades. Most likely way to stay in is to go in to management or education.

I myself have realized this. I don't regret becoming a Paramedic, but I know I probably won't retire from it. I am saving some money so I can go back to school full time and earn another degree, such as my PA or RN. RN DOES give more options in where you can work when your body decides it no longer wants to. Even if that means working 3 days in a hospital and 1 day on an ambulance for my 'fix'.

As hey, field work is just that awesome.

 

[Tigger]

Apples to oranges.

How about the states that require the same pre-reqs from Paramedics and RNs?

Are there states that do this?

Wouldn't you agree that the standard paramedic course requires 1 semester AandP? Obviously some require more, but to generalize this is the standard, no?