Nurse or Paramedic

[markemt]

This is for anyone looking into these 2 fields of medicine. This is my perspective as someone who only dipped his toe in the water so far.

In Phoenix, to become a nurse these days you have to wait 3-4 years after completing your prereqs and submitting your application or you can pay over $500/credit hour (about $20k-$30k total) and go to a private school.

I found a back door with a CNA course to the only MCC LPN program left and took a CNA course to apply for it. It only had a 1-2 semester wait.

Last semester I took the CNA course and EMT-B course at the same time. The difference in the curriculum was staggering. The difference in the knowledge I obtained between the courses was enormous. The presentation was worlds apart and the instruction was night and day.

If I had to sum up my experience with nursing so far, I would say it's over-complicated, inundated with waste (in terms of time, efforts, and cost), and provides little.

My CNA scope of practice from license with the State Board of Nursing grants me no more rights than any care taker or individual whatsoever, other than being able to state 'I'm an AZ licensed CNA'.

If I had to sum up my experience with pre-hospital medicine so far, I would say the text book is over-complicated but other than that, the instructional and functional beurocracy doesn't exist. My EMT program director took background and drug screens that my nursing program required to be unique. This is a big deal, he saw that the only difference between the screens was the letterhead of the college at the top and accepted them saving me hundreds of dollars. My EMT program didn't require all the prerequisites be obtained first (such as a state fingerprint card, etc.) and allowed for them to come later. Aside from all that I learned more in this course than I have ever learned in any college semester to date.

My EMT scope of practice allows me to administer medications (limited as they may be) and taught be procedural skills that serve functionality (c-spine backboarding, administering ox, etc.) This doesn't even touch on the fact that I could practice in the capacity of an EMT in ANY state in the nation due to national registry, where my CNA isn't even covered by the Nursing License Compact.

So I now have a choice to attend an LPN program or a Paramedic program in the Fall of this year. The LPN program is 5 miles from my condo. The Paramedic program is 20. I don't like the campus, location, or school the paramedic program is located at (same as my emt program). I do, however love the instructors, curriculum, and am particularly fond of the program director at this point even though I've never met him.

The choice is easy for me. I'll drive further, I'll go to a campus I dislike, and I'll be aeons happier as a Paramedic. I can always bridge to RN from paramedic, just as I could from LPN.

After seeing medicine from a few angles (I've also volunteered at a hospital for over a year and currently instruct CPR for the AHA), I have to say, FNP or NA used to be my goal/dream and now it's Physician. I'm not disgusted with the deplorable state of the nursing program I've seen such a limited aspect of, but I'm certainly unimpressed.

So this is me shipping an overly loquacious thought process into the universe probably more for the benefit of justifying my actions of making such a drastic change after years of investment. I hope this helps even one person, just a little bit.

6 months ago I said, 'I can't wait to be an RN, I dream of being an FNP'.

Today I say, 'I can't wait to be a paramedic, I dream of being a Physician'.

Take care everybody.

-Mark

 

[STXmedic]

 

[VFlutter]

Congratulations on figuring everything out. It can be a hard decision to make. However I would not judge the RN profession based on your experience with a single LPN program. While they are both "Nurses" they are totally different levels of education. LPN is not really improving much over your CNA/EMT.

Good Luck. I am sure you will enjoy being a paramedic. I really enjoyed EMS but was drawn more to nursing.

 

[VFlutter]

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All these new threads are making my post count skyrocket

 

[EpiEMS]

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RN vs. EMT-P?

I'll say this:

Pure financial ROI on your RN is probably going to be higher.

Beyond that, peace out.

 

[Aidey]

Why not just go to med school and avoid wasting time and money on a paramedic program?

 

[markemt]

Why not just go to med school and avoid wasting time and money on a paramedic program?

I can get my associates in paramedicine in 2 semesters. It would take 4 semesters to get my associates in nursing. I need the associates to transfer my credit block to ASU. I need to transfer my credit block to ASU so I can take advanced courses for my BS.

And I need my BS to apply to med school.

 

[VFlutter]

I can get my associates in paramedicine in 2 semesters. It would take 4 semesters to get my associates in nursing. I need the associates to transfer my credit block to ASU. I need to transfer my credit block to ASU so I can take advanced courses for my BS.

And I need my BS to apply to med school.

What are you trying to get a bachelors in?

Either way you still need the required credit hours for the degree. Not sure how going two semesters of paramedic will save you time when you still have to fulfill the requirements of the BS.

 

[Aidey]

So why not get an AS in something that will actually help you in the long run? What use is a AS in paramedicine going to be?

 

[JPINFV]

I can get my associates in paramedicine in 2 semesters. It would take 4 semesters to get my associates in nursing. I need the associates to transfer my credit block to ASU. I need to transfer my credit block to ASU so I can take advanced courses for my BS.

And I need my BS to apply to med school.

You need a year of biology, year of chemistry, year of organic chemistry, and for a good number of schools a year of math (year of calc or a semester of calc, semester of stats) and/or a year of physics.

This should be done at a 4 year university if possible.

You need to take and do well on the MCAT (at least a 30).

Finishing a BS is the least of your troubles, and if you have issues with that, med school isn't really a valid option.

 

[markemt]

Please do make suggestions for a useful AS in the pursuit of a medical degree.

I assume an AS in some form of medicine is more useful than say, Biology? Chemistry? Psychology?

I can also obtain employment in the medical field and maintain fluency in terminology while picking up pathology and other hands on experience.

I take online courses whenever I can, so I'm currently enrolled in ASU for courses to receive a degree in 'Health Sciences'. It's one of their few health related BS degrees completely online. There are a few courses I can take without prereqs, but by next year I'll need my credit transfer to take the rest of the classes.

 

[VFlutter]

You need to take and do well on the MCAT (at least a 30).

I got a 30 on the ACT, does that count? :rofl:

I assume an AS in some form of medicine is more useful than say, Biology? Chemistry? Psychology?


I take online courses whenever I can, so I'm currently enrolled in ASU for courses to receive a degree in 'Health Sciences'. It's one of their few health related BS degrees completely online. There are a few courses I can take without prereqs, but by next year I'll need my credit transfer to take the rest of the classes.

No, I think you have it backwards. I would think a Biology or Chemistry degree would be preferred. Not trying to start an argument but an AS in paramedicine is not "a form of medicine"

Also, a lot of schools do not like online course credit and may not even accept it.

 

[46Young]

My advice to anyone thinking about getting any degree that requires your physical presence in class and labs, to do that before working in the field as a medic. Many municipal EMS employers have rotating shift schedules, so you'll need to burn a ton of leave, and shift swaps (that must be paid back) to be present for class. There's also the threat of holdover and recall at work, so there's the real possibility of failing out due to absence. Nursing admissions used to not be competitive at all, but now it's so tight that they won't accommodate anyone's work schedule, from what I've seen.

Hospitals and privates can work around your schedule, typically if you've been there a while and they like you. I've witnessed employers changing an employee's schedule as a punitive measure, so there was a direct conflict with school.

 

[markemt]

I got a 30 on the ACT, does that count? :rofl:



No, I think you have it backwards. I would think a Biology or Chemistry degree would be preferred. Not trying to start an argument but an AS in paramedicine is not "a form of medicine"

Also, a lot of schools do not like online course credit and may not even accept it.

Out of curiosity, are you a medical school adviser or currently in the employ of one? I see your credentials list RN and EMT so what experience do you have with applying to med school? I don't want you to take offense to my questions, I'm simply curious as to your experience.

For the other poster, I've taken a year of chem and calculus, I'm taking my organic chemistries next year. As far as I've seen, they're preferred for most colleges, but not a requirement. If some schools don't accept my online degree from a state university, then so be it. I have worked full time since I turned 18, I don't plan on stopping until I attend medical school. I took 15 credit hours last semester and did fine, I'm in 14 this semester and it's a breeze. Because I have done this I have no debt. I have never taken out a student loan and won't until med school. I haven't even tapped FAFSA and I've saved enough money to pay for the entirety of a nursing program, which will now be for a paramedic program and university courses while taking paramedicine.

And to everyone, as much fun as it is playing 20 questions on a forum in order to receive more questions, please, if you have an opinion on my best pathway to education, please just spell it out for me. I have made my choices to date in the mindset that they are the best for my goals.

If you have suggestions, I'm more than open to them.

 

[JPINFV]

Please do make suggestions for a useful AS in the pursuit of a medical degree.

The only useful suggestion I'll make is don't get an associates degree.

DO: go to a 4 year college.
DO: major in something you enjoy (not necessarily a science or biology)
DO: Do well in your science courses.
DO: Volunteer both in medical and non-medical groups.
DO: Study for the MCAT, including professional prep courses. This is not the time to be idealistic.
DO NOT: Waste time if your goal is medical school. The road is long enough as it is, don't pick a detour that you don't have to do.

I assume an AS in some form of medicine is more useful than say, Biology? Chemistry? Psychology?

Right, wrong, or indifferent, a course at a community college is not going to been seen as having the same rigor as a 4 year university course. Also, with essentially 100% of accepted applicants having an undergraduate degree and a growing number having a graduate degree (30% last time I checked), the associates degree is going to mean precisely squat. If I had to bet, I'd bet that a minor is more important to the application game than an associates degree.

I can also obtain employment in the medical field and maintain fluency in terminology while picking up pathology and other hands on experience.

Unless you're going to snuggle up with Robbins Pathological Basis of Disease every night, the pathology you pick up isn't going to be much for almost all non-physician fields. You're also going to be missing the rest of the puzzle that's important for diagnosing and treating disease. Also there's a reason medical school doesn't require or have a med terminology course. The entire curriculum is an immersion course.

I take online courses whenever I can, so I'm currently enrolled in ASU for courses to receive a degree in 'Health Sciences'. It's one of their few health related BS degrees completely online. There are a few courses I can take without prereqs, but by next year I'll need my credit transfer to take the rest of the classes.

No one cares about credits. How are your grades in those courses?

 

[VFlutter]

Out of curiosity, are you a medical school adviser or currently in the employ of one? I see your credentials list RN and EMT so what experience do you have with applying to med school? I don't want you to take offense to my questions, I'm simply curious as to your experience.

I am not a medical school adviser nor have I applied for med school. I had considered medical school before going to nursing school and have recently been doing more research into the possibility of going back. I am by no means an expert and most of my experience is personal research and from friends in med school.

Unless you're going to snuggle up with Robbins Pathological Basis of Disease every night

I prefer spooning with Miller's anesthesia

 

[markemt]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, a course at a community college is not going to been seen as having the same rigor as a 4 year university course. Also, with essentially 100% of accepted applicants having an undergraduate degree and a growing number having a graduate degree (30% last time I checked), the associates degree is going to mean precisely squat. If I had to bet, I'd bet that a minor is more important to the application game than an associates degree.


No one cares about credits. How are your grades in those courses?

My credits from community college don't transfer to University without an AS. Trust me that I'd much rather be taking 14 credit hours at University right now than earning an AS, however I cannot take the courses I have left without prerequisite recognition and I can't gain that prerequisite recognition without an AS. This is Arizona State University and their partnership with Maricopa Community Colleges. If you have further resources or knowledge regarding a way around this requirement (where I will earn my BS) please let me know.

I have a 3.8 in sciences and math.

I stated earlier, I'm getting an undergrad degree and I've never heard of a med school accepting any non-undergrads.

Thank you for your time and efforts.

 

[markemt]

I am not a medical school adviser nor have I applied for med school. I had considered medical school before going to nursing school and have recently been doing more research into the possibility of going back. I am by no means an expert and most of my experience is personal research and from friends in med school.

So, what AS degree and online BS degree shall I get to go to med school? Why shouldn't I learn paramedicine while obtaining my AS?

 

[JPINFV]

As far as I've seen, they're preferred for most colleges, but not a requirement.

Umm, in the application game "required" and "preferred" are essentially synonymous.

Some quick facts. In 2012 45,266 individuals submitted a total of 636,309 applications (about 14 applications per individual) with 19,517 finding a home at a MD school. That's slightly above 43% of applicants being accepted. DO school statistics aren't much better.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/2012factstable17.pdf

https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/2012factstable1.pdf


It's not unusual to have a school receive 4-5 thousand applications, interview around 700 of those, accept around 500, and enroll a class around 100-200 students large (and admissions offices are good at hitting the number of students they want). When you're easily spending several thousands dollars on applications alone (not counting travel expenses), you don't want to be applying with just the minimum requirements. The schools have no problems taking your $100 secondary fee.

If some schools don't accept my online degree from a state university, then so be it. I have worked full time since I turned 18, I don't plan on stopping until I attend medical school.

If push comes to shove and it comes between work and getting good grades, are you willing to stop working?

I took 15 credit hours last semester and did fine, I'm in 14 this semester and it's a breeze.

1. Define "fine." Bs are "meh. Anything B- or below is bad.
2. What's your science GPA?


Edit: Just saw the 3.8. That's a really good GPA. Is it just general chemistry and calculus/statistics?

And to everyone, as much fun as it is playing 20 questions on a forum in order to receive more questions, please, if you have an opinion on my best pathway to education, please just spell it out for me. I have made my choices to date in the mindset that they are the best for my goals.

If you have suggestions, I'm more than open to them.

...and I'm trying to give an accurate picture. If you're serious (and I say this because most pre-meds are not serious, hence why most pre-meds never submit an AMCAS once), then you're in a fight. That fight started your first day of college and it's with 40k other people... and less than half of you will survive. Don't underestimate your enemy, because the other 40k plus is not going to underestimate you and will pull what ever tools they have (be it tutors, prep courses, being a complete and utter A-hole and sabotaging other students all the way to academic dishonesty) to survive. That's not hyperbole. That's statistical fact straight from the group that runs the application system (American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC)).

Treating the requirements as a minimum is like being in WW1 with a bolt action rifle and charging a machine gun nest. Sure, one or two might survive, but I wouldn't want to be in that position... and neither do you.

 

[markemt]

Umm, in the application game "required" and "preferred" are essentially synonymous.

Some quick facts. In 2012 45,266 individuals submitted a total of 636,309 applications (about 14 applications per individual) with 19,517 finding a home at a MD school. That's slightly above 43% of applicants being accepted. DO school statistics aren't much better.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/2012factstable17.pdf

https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/2012factstable1.pdf


It's not unusual to have a school receive 4-5 thousand applications, interview around 700 of those, accept around 500, and enroll a class around 100-200 students large (and admissions offices are good at hitting the number of students they want). When you're easily spending several thousands dollars on applications alone (not counting travel expenses), you don't want to be applying with just the minimum requirements. The schools have no problems taking your $100 secondary fee.


If push comes to shove and it comes between work and getting good grades, are you willing to stop working?

1. Define "fine." Bs are "meh. Anything B- or below is bad.
2. What's your science GPA?

...and I'm trying to give an accurate picture. If you're serious (and I say this because most pre-meds are not serious, hence why most pre-meds never submit an AMCAS once), then you're in a fight. That fight started your first day of college and it's with 40k other people... and less than half of you will survive. Don't underestimate your enemy, because the other 40k plus is not going to underestimate you and will pull what ever tools they have (be it tutors, prep courses, being a complete and utter A-hole and sabotaging other students all the way to academic dishonesty) to survive. That's not hyperbole. That's statistical fact straight from the group that runs the application system (American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC)).

Treating the requirements as a minimum is like being in WW1 with a bolt action rifle and charging a machine gun nest. Sure, one or two might survive, but I wouldn't want to be in that position... and neither do you.

Please at least read my reply. I've already answered all your questions and in a posting with your quote at that.

What AAMC statistic are you citing regarding academic sabotage and dishonesty?

I understand the competitive nature of going to med school, but I highly doubt I need to worry about sabotage from other students in an online program. I can't even start to imagine the scenarios your proposing or supposedly citing from AAMC statistics. Trust me that I would love a link to this information or reference, however. Even an article.