New Kansas law allows EMS/FD to concealed carry.

SandpitMedic said:
The hard truth is, and this may be a hard pill to swallow, I wouldn't trust most of you on this very site with a can of pepper spray let alone a firearm. Let alone all the muckety mucks out there on the EMS streets. No ****ing way. They are just as likely - scratch that - MORE likely to accidentally shoot me or have an ND than for it to be of use beneficially in deescalating a situation. Furthermore, for most people, especially the know-it-all, paragod, tough guy, testosterone driven, 9/11 hero syndrome 23 year old in EMS- that gun on his hip changes his psyche to actually drive him to enter into or escalate a hostile situation that he otherwise would not. To put it another words, he would be more emboldened to initiate or increase the likelihood of a conflict rather than deter one or shy away from one.
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I think this fear is way overblown. If it were permissible for paramedics to carry on duty, you'd have the same people carrying on ambulances who already carry everywhere they go in public already. Every CCP holder I know takes the responsibility very seriously and has a realistic grasp of what it means. And I'm not aware of CCP holders in general being a trouble-seeking bunch or being statistically any more likely to be involved in a violent scenario. Personally, I'm more averse to conflict when I have my gun in my truck (I find myself thinking twice about how I react when someone cuts me off, for instance), because my biggest fear is finding myself in a heated situation where I feel threatened and my gun gets involved unnecessarily. The idea that having a gun around means gun violence is more likely is the essence of all of the anti-gun crowd's arguments, and their arguments have all been disproven repeatedly.

I'm not a fan of the idea of "armed paramedics" any more than anyone else, but a paramedic who also happens to be a responsible CCP holder carrying a small weapon discretely and only using it in the same type of situation on duty as he would off duty is hard to argue against, I think. I think every human has an innate right to self-defense that no one else can justly interfere with, and I don't think that right should have to be checked at the door to the post office or the school or the ambulance bay where you work.
 
Remi said:
And I'm not aware of CCP holders in general being a trouble-seeking bunch or being statistically any more likely to be involved in a violent scenario.
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From my reading, statistically CCW permit holders are involved with less trouble than the average citizen, and have criminal conviction rates similar to LEOs.
 
Correct.
I concur.

I was speaking about just arming any old body because they are in EMS. Like Kansas just did, for their government EMS/FD folks, regardless of them being CCW holders.
 
SandpitMedic said:
Correct.
I concur.

I was speaking about just arming any old body because they are in EMS. Like Kansas just did, for their government EMS/FD folks, regardless of them being CCW holders.
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Ha ha. I probably should have read the article in question.
 
My volunteer fire service had to issue a proclamation a few years back, that carrying weapons either on the engines or to a scene via pov were verboten. I'm all for it. The matter of having a firearm at close quarters with a violent patient is pretty scary. I really don't like the idea of a 5150 grabbing mine or my partner's concealed carry and putting every responder on scene at risk. The statistical outcome, if they discover your weapon and/or you feel the need to pull it, is that it will be taken from you and some other EMS unit will get called to stage for a GSW. If I arrive on a scene, I'll expect it to be safe before I do a good goddamn thing. My partner carrying, especially if it is unbeknownst to me, is a perfect example of an unsafe scene.

At the close quarters that we're expected to work with unpredictable patients, the statistically more effective self-defense is knowing a couple of well practiced breaks, holds, and come alongs.

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Recently ran a mutual aid call with a little volly fire district. One of their personnel was walking around on scene open carrying a 1911 with no sort of retention holster along with a self defense knife jutting off his hip and a few spare magazines. Oh and a badge too denoting him as part of an incident management team (in a county of 20k, we don't have that kind of thing).

And there we are, on scene of a suicide with a hysterical family and this dude is walking around adding additional risk to what is already a volatile scene. We have no idea what his training is (we run fairly often with them) and I have no doubt it makes patients and questions uncomfortable. And the department apparently endorses it, which is just awesome.
 
ThePants said:
My volunteer fire service had to issue a proclamation a few years back, that carrying weapons either on the engines or to a scene via pov were verboten. I'm all for it. The matter of having a firearm at close quarters with a violent patient is pretty scary. I really don't like the idea of a 5150 grabbing mine or my partner's concealed carry and putting every responder on scene at risk. The statistical outcome, if they discover your weapon and/or you feel the need to pull it, is that it will be taken from you and some other EMS unit will get called to stage for a GSW. If I arrive on a scene, I'll expect it to be safe before I do a good goddamn thing. My partner carrying, especially if it is unbeknownst to me, is a perfect example of an unsafe scene.

At the close quarters that we're expected to work with unpredictable patients, the statistically more effective self-defense is knowing a couple of well practiced breaks, holds, and come alongs.

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If your partner is carrying concealed, how would you know and how would it be unsafe?

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MackTheKnife said:
Actually, you said "unbeknownst to me"

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Ah. That part. Okay.

If I'm aware of my partner carrying, then I have an opportunity to convince her/him not to. Failing that, as law allows, I would have an opportunity to choose to arm myself as well or request another partner.

If I have arrived on scene, assessed scene safety, and determined there are no weapons on our around the patient, then I can attempt to assist the patient. Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene would endanger my health. Should the patient discover, through physical contact that is sometimes necessary with health care providers under emergency circumstances, that my partner is packing a firearm, then this provides the patient with an option of arming themselves. No amount of checking for scene safety on my part is sufficient to counteract this danger.

It would seem logical to arm medics in an open combat situation, where the health care provider would, for the most part, be treating friendly soldiers.

I'm not opposed to 2nd amendment rights. In fact, I support the logic and intention of both our Constitution and the bill of rights as documents that are intended to protect our freedoms and security. I do, however, question the wisdom of arming first responders. This is my opinion, and it should be taken as such.
 
ThePants said:
Ah. That part. Okay.

If I'm aware of my partner carrying, then I have an opportunity to convince her/him not to. Failing that, as law allows, I would have an opportunity to choose to arm myself as well or request another partner.

If I have arrived on scene, assessed scene safety, and determined there are no weapons on our around the patient, then I can attempt to assist the patient. Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene would endanger my health. Should the patient discover, through physical contact that is sometimes necessary with health care providers under emergency circumstances, that my partner is packing a firearm, then this provides the patient with an option of arming themselves. No amount of checking for scene safety on my part is sufficient to counteract this danger.

It would seem logical to arm medics in an open combat situation, where the health care provider would, for the most part, be treating friendly soldiers.

I'm not opposed to 2nd amendment rights. In fact, I support the logic and intention of both our Constitution and the bill of rights as documents that are intended to protect our freedoms and security. I do, however, question the wisdom of arming first responders. This is my opinion, and it should be taken as such.
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Completely understand your position. I also agree there is room to question arming first responders. As an ardent 2nd Amendment supporter, I can see carrying. On the other hand, carrying concealed in this situation would be difficult at best. The two main options would be pocket carry or ankle carry. These are not the best options in the least.

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ThePants said:
If I'm aware of my partner carrying, then I have an opportunity to convince her/him not to. Failing that, as law allows, I would have an opportunity to choose to arm myself as well or request another partner.
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For the record, I never carried on the ambulance. Also for the record, if I did carry, I would not draw my weapon until I felt my life or my partners life was in imminent danger. Finally, if I did chose to arm myself, you couldn't convince me not to, and if you wanted to arms yourself, I would give you suggestions on what to do. and if you wanted another partner, go for it.
ThePants said:
If I have arrived on scene, assessed scene safety, and determined there are no weapons on our around the patient, then I can attempt to assist the patient. Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene would endanger my health.
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Newsflash.... the scene is never 100% safe. Further, just because the cops are on scene doesn't guarantee it's safe. regardless of what you were told in EMT class, scene can go from safe to not safe with little warning. So I would argue that you are constantly "Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene."
ThePants said:
Should the patient discover, through physical contact that is sometimes necessary with health care providers under emergency circumstances, that my partner is packing a firearm, then this provides the patient with an option of arming themselves. No amount of checking for scene safety on my part is sufficient to counteract this danger.
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following this logic, law enforcement officers should never be packing firearms, as they are more likely to get involved in physical confrontations than EMS workers, due to the nature of their job. Again, it's your logic, not mine.

If I were to carry, I am less concern for the patient getting ahold of my concealed firearm, and more worried about responding to the sick person call in the projects, where some upstanding member of the bloods or crips recognizes me as the guy who failed to save the life his buddy who was shot 3 times, and now wants to even the score. And BTW, he won't be needing to take my gun, as he already has his own. But I have also seen certain people behave better simply because there was someone with a gun on their hip, just in case it was needed.
 
DrParasite said:
For the record, I never carried on the ambulance. Also for the record, if I did carry, I would not draw my weapon until I felt my life or my partners life was in imminent danger. Finally, if I did chose to arm myself, you couldn't convince me not to, and if you wanted to arms yourself, I would give you suggestions on what to do. and if you wanted another partner, go for it.
Newsflash.... the scene is never 100% safe. Further, just because the cops are on scene doesn't guarantee it's safe. regardless of what you were told in EMT class, scene can go from safe to not safe with little warning. So I would argue that you are constantly "Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene."
following this logic, law enforcement officers should never be packing firearms, as they are more likely to get involved in physical confrontations than EMS workers, due to the nature of their job. Again, it's your logic, not mine.

If I were to carry, I am less concern for the patient getting ahold of my concealed firearm, and more worried about responding to the sick person call in the projects, where some upstanding member of the bloods or crips recognizes me as the guy who failed to save the life his buddy who was shot 3 times, and now wants to even the score. And BTW, he won't be needing to take my gun, as he already has his own. But I have also seen certain people behave better simply because there was someone with a gun on their hip, just in case it was needed.
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Our job is never a safe one. The idea of a safe scene is to minimize the dangerous variables to a manageable and approachable level. I'll not deny that carrying a weapon to a medical or fire response has its positive aspects, but in my estimation the benefits do not outweigh the distraction and potential hazard.

I realize that I am taking a controversial stance on an emotional topic. I don't intend to make a crusade on the issue, nor attempt to change anyone's opinion of the matter. I also don't intend to defend the minute details, nor complete a philosophical or statistical essay that is complete and referenced with historical research.

I repeat that it is an opinion. I see that you have your own, and that it differs from mine. Cool beans.
 
Someone once told me "don't be part of the emergency." He was old school and I kind of snickered at his comment. This post brought that comment to mind.
 
DrParasite said:
following this logic, law enforcement officers should never be packing firearms, as they are more likely to get involved in physical confrontations than EMS workers, due to the nature of their job. Again, it's your logic, not mine.
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Law enforcement gets much more training on weapon retention than the typical concealed carry holder. I am not sure I trust the average citizen to retain a handgun in the close quarters of an ambulance fight once it is drawn. "But I won't pull it unless I am outside the bus aiming in." Are you sure you can guarantee that, and guarantee you don't shoot your partner?

If I were to carry, I am less concern for the patient getting ahold of my concealed firearm, and more worried about responding to the sick person call in the projects, where some upstanding member of the bloods or crips recognizes me as the guy who failed to save the life his buddy who was shot 3 times, and now wants to even the score. And BTW, he won't be needing to take my gun, as he already has his own. But I have also seen certain people behave better simply because there was someone with a gun on their hip, just in case it was needed.
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This seems like a bit of an absurd scenario. When (if) that guy comes to even the score, you're concealed weapon probably isn't going to be much help.
 
I am an armed security officer and an EMT in a high end community so I do treat pts while armed open carrying.

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