National Standards should all be the same across the Nation?

[usafmedic45]

Are you kidding? You cant get a sr8t answer from nobody in this state.....our OEMS office is a joke here.

Actually, I know a few people affiliated with the WV EMS system at the state level and I beg to differ. Simply because they might smack you on the hand and tell you "no" when you ask to do something you have no business- or at least no concrete argument for doing- does not mean they are a joke. I say this because normally this is the sort of things that lead to EMS personnel getting their panties in a twist and maligning their state EMS authorities.

......help or give me the same resources as all the others to help me provide the level of care for my pt deserves..

I think you missed the point he was trying to make. Not only are you going to see a different spread of patients (less penetrating trauma vs more "got drunk and fell out of a tree while deer hunting"*), a rural EMS provider is going to be with the patient a lot longer which in some ways, contrary to the idea that a high-volume system is the only one that should have advanced protocols, leads to the need to have a bigger scope of practice. If you're ten minutes out from a hospital, you are simply going to have less time to do things for the patient than if you have that same patient and are 30 minutes out, assuming you're not screwing around on scene either playing Ricky Rescue or waiting on a dash for cash flight.

I believe there should be a basic standard of care across the board, but it should not be

there is way to much RED TAPE in EMS anyways

Judging by some of the people in our ranks, I could make a very good argument for exactly the opposite.

You do not have Registered Nurses and Respiratory Therapist getting trained in 12 weeks in Texas and having other states require a degree, while some offer a year of vocational training. There is a standard for them across the board.....

Actually there are a few states with screwball requirements. One of them is New York where you have to have an associates or bachelors in respiratory to practice. A colleague of mine who holds a PhD in biochemistry can not get his license to practice there because he was trained as an RT before the requirement for associates degrees came into practice. But by and large, you are correct.

It can be done here if the states would get thier head out thier ***! or I should say the MEdical Directors should....

"The primary role of a medical director is to protect the patients seen by those under his guidance from those under his guidance"

I get mad sometimes that we as a whole from Bs to Ps are not able to use what we are taught due to STATE protocols dont think we know what we are doing

No offense, but just because you know how to do something does not mean you should be allowed to do it. I know how to do a thoracotomy, I've been shown how to do them on cadavers and assisted with them on live patients, just like how doctors learn to do them. It does not mean I have a divine mandate to do so.

Also, once again said with no offense, but you don't come across as all that well educated so that may be something else that is shooting you in the foot in terms of getting yourself moved forward. It's a huge problem in EMS and you're exhibiting textbook symptoms of it.

the next state over VA and my county borders VA..... there they can RSI .......here we CANT.....see my point!

No, I don't.

Think about the biggest moron paramedic you know. OK, now imagine him trying to RSI your youngest child. See my point?

....here if it is raining in Florida they wont fly in WV.....hehehe... seriously if it is partly cloudy we cant get a helicopter..... our birds dont fly in weather!

That is a good thing.

thats the problem now why we are so short on medics

Is that why the value of a medic in terms of salary is so low? Because of the shortage?

I am not saying go back I am saying go forward......however I dont think it should be a degree.....and should be made affordable for all that want it be able to get it!

So all the fun stuff and none of the things needed to assure high quality care, eh?

how many people do you think can afford a degree education here?

You really don't understand why nurses, RTs and docs are paid so well do you?

To me that is STUPID on your part ........not follow the protocols.....that means you dont have standards.....educated or not

Congrats, you just dismissed the highest level of care we could possibly see in EMS: autonomy.

I am college educated BA in Fire Science and ALSO I am bridging my medic

How did you do during the English composition course? Your posts here are atrociously hard to follow.

And if you would read all the threads posted here in this thread you would not jump to so quick there cowboy.....

No comment.

to see what we are up against in WV

I never thought I would say this but "Thank God for a strong authoritarian state EMS agency".

I didn't choose to stay stuck at a minimum level all my life. I cared about my Pt's welfare, not just getting to do cool skills.

OK, we've rebutted his points well enough. Let him troll himself out until he gets upset and the mods start swinging the ban stick. His mind is made up and nothing we say will change it.





*-Actual case I worked, by the way.

 

[1badassEMT-I]

If you feel that way and are the Fire chief, then push for EMS to be separate. There are thousands on EMS systems all over the country that are not in with Fire. They are stand alone systems that their only priority is Pt care. It does work quite well. Again it all comes down to pushing for change. Does it happen over night? No, it will not. But, the change will never happen till people start pushing it. I have seen the changes work in over 22 years. It does happen and will, if it is pushed.

Well that is one thing we can agree about then......trust me man I have pushed for change and meet alot of resistance in doing so.......and get this WV is not a NFPA state.....you know why MONEY.....they cant afford the the funding to train.....the VOLLYS ..... the vollys have to depend on donations..... I have pushed for getting a fire tax.....to raise money.....not going to happen.... they rather spend the tax dollar on the county farm (fairgrounds) than education and it pisses me off.....I would not respond to another first responder call if didnt have too but my Dept is a transport Dept meaning we run five trucks for EMS services here....and it is a income for us.

 

[reaper]

set national standards to become an EMT and a Paramedic and then let the communities that are going to pay them decide what level of care they're willing to pay for?

Do people in West Virginia bleed differently than we do here in California?

Do people in Alaska respond differently to cardiac drugs than the folks who live in Arizona?

Get the education, then go to where the people are willing to pay you a livable wage for providing them with exceptional emergency medical care.

The entire mess that is the EMS system in the U.S. boils down to one simple thing, control.

JohnE

John,

We do have a National Standard to become an EMT or Paramedic. Unfortunately it is a MINIMUM standard. A lot of states choose to stay at that minimum and that is the problem.

They will never be able to raise that Standard, because of the people that jump up whining about the higher education that would be needed.

 

[reaper]

Well that is one thing we can agree about then......trust me man I have pushed for change and meet alot of resistance in doing so.......and get this WV is not a NFPA state.....you know why MONEY.....they cant afford the the funding to train.....the VOLLYS ..... the vollys have to depend on donations..... I have pushed for getting a fire tax.....to raise money.....not going to happen.... they rather spend the tax dollar on the county farm (fairgrounds) than education and it pisses me off.....I would not respond to another first responder call if didn't have too but my Dept is a transport Dept meaning we run five trucks for EMS services here....and it is a income for us.

Then work at the local level. If the politicians in there now won't help. Start pushing for people in office that will. Replace the leaders and the change will start!

 

[1badassEMT-I]

Actually, I know a few people affiliated with the WV EMS system at the state level and I beg to differ. Simply because they might smack you on the hand and tell you "no" when you ask to do something you have no business- or at least no concrete argument for doing- does not mean they are a joke. I say this because normally this is the sort of things that lead to EMS personnel getting their panties in a twist and maligning their state EMS authorities.



I think you missed the point he was trying to make. Not only are you going to see a different spread of patients (less penetrating trauma vs more "got drunk and fell out of a tree while deer hunting"*), a rural EMS provider is going to be with the patient a lot longer which in some ways, contrary to the idea that a high-volume system is the only one that should have advanced protocols, leads to the need to have a bigger scope of practice. If you're ten minutes out from a hospital, you are simply going to have less time to do things for the patient than if you have that same patient and are 30 minutes out, assuming you're not screwing around on scene either playing Ricky Rescue or waiting on a dash for cash flight.

I believe there should be a basic standard of care across the board, but it should not be



Judging by some of the people in our ranks, I could make a very good argument for exactly the opposite.



Actually there are a few states with screwball requirements. One of them is New York where you have to have an associates or bachelors in respiratory to practice. A colleague of mine who holds a PhD in biochemistry can not get his license to practice there because he was trained as an RT before the requirement for associates degrees came into practice. But by and large, you are correct.



"The primary role of a medical director is to protect the patients seen by those under his guidance from those under his guidance"



No offense, but just because you know how to do something does not mean you should be allowed to do it. I know how to do a thoracotomy, I've been shown how to do them on cadavers and assisted with them on live patients, just like how doctors learn to do them. It does not mean I have a divine mandate to do so.

Also, once again said with no offense, but you don't come across as all that well educated so that may be something else that is shooting you in the foot in terms of getting yourself moved forward. It's a huge problem in EMS and you're exhibiting textbook symptoms of it.



No, I don't.

Think about the biggest moron paramedic you know. OK, now imagine him trying to RSI your youngest child. See my point?




That is a good thing.


Is that why the value of a medic in terms of salary is so low? Because of the shortage?



So all the fun stuff and none of the things needed to assure high quality care, eh?




You really don't understand why nurses, RTs and docs are paid so well do you?



Congrats, you just dismissed the highest level of care we could possibly see in EMS: autonomy.



How did you do during the English composition course? Your posts here are atrociously hard to follow.



No comment.



I never thought I would say this but "Thank God for a strong authoritarian state EMS agency".



OK, we've rebutted his points well enough. Let him troll himself out until he gets upset and the mods start swinging the ban stick. His mind is made up and nothing we say will change it.





*-Actual case I worked, by the way.

Whatever dude !!!!!!!! these are just my opinions I am like anybody else it is just a opinion...... nothing but my opinion..... that what this forum is about ..... Call it want you want.....BAN me as you call it I am not mad just enjoying the conversation with the ones I got going with......

 

[1badassEMT-I]

John,

We do have a National Standard to become an EMT or Paramedic. Unfortunately it is a MINIMUM standard. A lot of states choose to stay at that minimum and that is the problem.

They will never be able to raise that Standard, because of the people that jump up whining about the higher education that would be needed.

ok can we agree to this I agree with what you are saying.... Dont you think we need to make it affordable to get the education....meet me half way here...

 

[1badassEMT-I]

set national standards to become an EMT and a Paramedic and then let the communities that are going to pay them decide what level of care they're willing to pay for?

Do people in West Virginia bleed differently than we do here in California?

Do people in Alaska respond differently to cardiac drugs than the folks who live in Arizona?

Get the education, then go to where the people are willing to pay you a livable wage for providing them with exceptional emergency medical care.

The entire mess that is the EMS system in the U.S. boils down to one simple thing, control.

JohnE

John it is not about what we get paid for.....it is about pt care.....

 

[reaper]

ok can we agree to this I agree with what you are saying.... Dont you think we need to make it affordable to get the education....meet me half way here...

What does the cost have to do with the degree? Community colleges are normally the cheapest place to get an education. They provide 2 year degrees there. Yes, I agree that tuition has skyrocketed, we are in desperate financial times and states have cut funding to colleges. They have no choice but to raise the costs, to survive.

Again, if someone wants it, they find a way to get it done.

 

[1badassEMT-I]

What does the cost have to do with the degree? Community colleges are normally the cheapest place to get an education. They provide 2 year degrees there. Yes, I agree that tuition has skyrocketed, we are in desperate financial times and states have cut funding to colleges. They have no choice but to raise the costs, to survive.

Again, if someone wants it, they find a way to get it done.

Due to the cost and you are right community colleges are the cheapest however they want to take it out of the community colleges and put it into a University..... BIG cost....

And you are right people do find ways to overcome the cost.....

OK I will retract the statement I made about the degree.....how ever I still believe we can do some thing better... how I dont know? ..... but hey if it will get more medics in the street I am for it!

I lobby to my town officers all time about my spending.....you got understand fighting the town is a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:! To get them to understand why we need equipment on the trucks so we can better provide for our citizen....it is a task

 

[1badassEMT-I]

Quote:
I get mad sometimes that we as a whole from Bs to Ps are not able to use what we are taught due to STATE protocols dont think we know what we are doing

No offense, but just because you know how to do something does not mean you should be allowed to do it. I know how to do a thoracotomy, I've been shown how to do them on cadavers and assisted with them on live patients, just like how doctors learn to do them. It does not mean I have a divine mandate to do so.

Also, once again said with no offense, but you don't come across as all that well educated so that may be something else that is shooting you in the foot in terms of getting yourself moved forward. It's a huge problem in EMS and you're exhibiting textbook symptoms of it.
I AM VERY WELL EDUCATED!!!!!! But thanks for your opinion!

 

[1badassEMT-I]

Actually, I know a few people affiliated with the WV EMS system at the state level and I beg to differ. Simply because they might smack you on the hand and tell you "no" when you ask to do something you have no business- or at least no concrete argument for doing- does not mean they are a joke. I say this because normally this is the sort of things that lead to EMS personnel getting their panties in a twist and maligning their state EMS authorities.



I think you missed the point he was trying to make. Not only are you going to see a different spread of patients (less penetrating trauma vs more "got drunk and fell out of a tree while deer hunting"*), a rural EMS provider is going to be with the patient a lot longer which in some ways, contrary to the idea that a high-volume system is the only one that should have advanced protocols, leads to the need to have a bigger scope of practice. If you're ten minutes out from a hospital, you are simply going to have less time to do things for the patient than if you have that same patient and are 30 minutes out, assuming you're not screwing around on scene either playing Ricky Rescue or waiting on a dash for cash flight.

I believe there should be a basic standard of care across the board, but it should not be



Judging by some of the people in our ranks, I could make a very good argument for exactly the opposite.



Actually there are a few states with screwball requirements. One of them is New York where you have to have an associates or bachelors in respiratory to practice. A colleague of mine who holds a PhD in biochemistry can not get his license to practice there because he was trained as an RT before the requirement for associates degrees came into practice. But by and large, you are correct.



"The primary role of a medical director is to protect the patients seen by those under his guidance from those under his guidance"



No offense, but just because you know how to do something does not mean you should be allowed to do it. I know how to do a thoracotomy, I've been shown how to do them on cadavers and assisted with them on live patients, just like how doctors learn to do them. It does not mean I have a divine mandate to do so.

Also, once again said with no offense, but you don't come across as all that well educated so that may be something else that is shooting you in the foot in terms of getting yourself moved forward. It's a huge problem in EMS and you're exhibiting textbook symptoms of it.



No, I don't.

Think about the biggest moron paramedic you know. OK, now imagine him trying to RSI your youngest child. See my point?




That is a good thing.


Is that why the value of a medic in terms of salary is so low? Because of the shortage?



So all the fun stuff and none of the things needed to assure high quality care, eh?




You really don't understand why nurses, RTs and docs are paid so well do you?



Congrats, you just dismissed the highest level of care we could possibly see in EMS: autonomy.



How did you do during the English composition course? Your posts here are atrociously hard to follow.



No comment.



I never thought I would say this but "Thank God for a strong authoritarian state EMS agency".



OK, we've rebutted his points well enough. Let him troll himself out until he gets upset and the mods start swinging the ban stick. His mind is made up and nothing we say will change it.





*-Actual case I worked, by the way.

I am very WELL EDUCATED but thanks for your opinion! Have a nice day!

 

[1badassEMT-I]

Reaper I had no right to call you a IDIOT and for that I am SORRY.... JUST wanted that out there so nobody thinks I am a ***.....he was expressing his opinion as I was mine ......however I expressed mine in the wrong way and for that I am sorry!

 

[usafmedic45]

JUST wanted that out there so nobody thinks I am a ***.....he was expressing his opinion as I was mine ......however I expressed mine in the wrong way and for that I am sorry!

It's not often we see mea culpas from newbies on this site. *thumbs up*

 

[EMSLaw]

I disagree making it a degree......thats the problem now why we are so short on medics.....we have taking it out of the community or votech college and put in a higher college....people cant AFFORD the training there for we have a medic shortage......I remember back when 410 hours you were cert as a medic.... cost $500.... done .....now thats not even a drop in the bucket!!!!

West Virginia has a state university system. It's amazingly reasonable in terms of tuition - around $5000 a year for in-state undergrads. And they have generous scholarship packages for WV residents. I'm sure the reason for this is to put college within the grasp of the economically disadvantaged of your state.

I'm the first to agree that maybe a college degree isn't for everyone. The associates degree level is still quite the technical degree. Baby steps, baby steps.

But I'd rather see the education level go up, rather than down. Who should have more training? The guy who injects you with drugs and may be making life-or-death decisions.... or the guy who cuts your hair?

 

[1badassEMT-I]

West Virginia has a state university system. It's amazingly reasonable in terms of tuition - around $5000 a year for in-state undergrads. And they have generous scholarship packages for WV residents. I'm sure the reason for this is to put college within the grasp of the economically disadvantaged of your state.

I'm the first to agree that maybe a college degree isn't for everyone. The associates degree level is still quite the technical degree. Baby steps, baby steps.

But I'd rather see the education level go up, rather than down. Who should have more training? The guy who injects you with drugs and may be making life-or-death decisions.... or the guy who cuts your hair?

I do agree with the baby steps yes! And I do agree education needs to go up not down. Like I stated before just make it affordable for the one who want to attain it.... 5000.00 does not seem like alot of money but here in WV it is like giving up your first born.

 

[EMSLaw]

I do agree with the baby steps yes! And I do agree education needs to go up not down. Like I stated before just make it affordable for the one who want to attain it.... 5000.00 does not seem like alot of money but here in WV it is like giving up your first born.

It's an investment, of course. I have a Bachelors and a JD. Other people on this site have a Bachelors and are partway through an MD or DO. There are people with multiple masters degrees who post here regularly. We all understand the sacrifices of going to college. But there really shouldn't be an option, especially at the paramedic level.

Professions, like it or not, are characterized by a significant amount of formal learning. Whether you're talking about the three traditional professions (medicine, law, and the clergy), or about the more expanded colloquial definition, there is a significant period of learning involved. For some reason EMS thinks its excused, both from the formal education requirements of a profession and from the combined education and apprenticeship period of the skilled trades.

If a degree were required to enter EMS, those who really wanted to do it would find a way to pay for it - savings, a part-time job, scholarships, student loans - just like the rest of us did.

 

[1badassEMT-I]

It's an investment, of course. I have a Bachelors and a JD. Other people on this site have a Bachelors and are partway through an MD or DO. There are people with multiple masters degrees who post here regularly. We all understand the sacrifices of going to college. But there really shouldn't be an option, especially at the paramedic level.

Professions, like it or not, are characterized by a significant amount of formal learning. Whether you're talking about the three traditional professions (medicine, law, and the clergy), or about the more expanded colloquial definition, there is a significant period of learning involved. For some reason EMS thinks its excused, both from the formal education requirements of a profession and from the combined education and apprenticeship period of the skilled trades.

If a degree were required to enter EMS, those who really wanted to do it would find a way to pay for it - savings, a part-time job, scholarships, student loans - just like the rest of us did.

Yes I see your point as I have a BA and working on my Masters I understand however I am in better shape than some in WV....But I do see the point..

 

[Sasha]

I disagree making it a degree......thats the problem now why we are so short on medics.....we have taking it out of the community or votech college and put in a higher college....people cant AFFORD the training there for we have a medic shortage......I remember back when 410 hours you were cert as a medic.... cost $500.... done .....now thats not even a drop in the bucket!!!!

I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but here, if it's a degree program you can get financial aid to go to paramedic school. I think that makes it far more affordable as a degree, you pay it off a little at a time. $500 would barely cover the cost of books, and it is not as simple as "Make it cheaper! *poof!* it's cheaper!"

I would rather have a medic shortage and the medics you have be quality medics than to have an overabundance of medic mill wonders. Quite frankly, I'd rather have no medic at all than a bad medic, at least an EMT can't really hurt you with what they don't know (or think they know) while a medic's lack of knowledge and abundance of cool skills and meds could definitely hurt you.

You want more pay, more respect? That doesn't happen without higher standards and more education.

Yes I see your point as I have a BA and working on my Masters I understand however I am in better shape than some in WV....But I do see the point..

Please forgive me for being rude, but if you are so educated why don't your posts reflect that? I have been reading over your them and sometimes it is really hard to decipher exactly what you meant due to poor spelling, sentence structure and grammar. Maybe you type too fast and need to slow down.

 

[1badassEMT-I]

I don't know if it's the same eveywhere, but here, if it's a degree program you can get financial aid to go to paramedic school. I think that makes it far more affordable as a degree, you pay it off a little at a time. $500 would barely cover the cost of books, and it is not as simple as "Make it cheaper! *poof!* it's cheaper!"

I would rather have a medic shortage and the medics you have be quality medics than to have an overabundance of medic mill wonders. Quite frankly, I'd rather have no medic at all than a bad medic, at least an EMT can't really hurt you with what they don't know (or think they know) while a medic's lack of knowledge and abundance of cool skills and meds could definitely hurt you.

You want more pay, more respect? That doesn't happen without higher standards and more education.

I dont want people here to get me wrong I believe in higher education lets make that really clear..... just because a medic doesnt have a "degree" as a paramedic or didnt get his from a "college" does not mean he/she does not have the skills set as the rest of you medics..... I am saying and please understand this while some of you have a degree for your paramedic or not, does that make you better than the ones that dont....but they are medics and fine ones at that,that dont have a degree. And when I made the statement that BACK IN THE DAY (PLEASE READ IT) I remember when you could get a medic certfication @ 410 hours and costed about $500.00 to get it. I was using as a reference as to back then compared to now is all that statement was. And I say again is 410 hours enough training NOW I say hell NO! Further more this thread turn into a nite mare how it got on this beyond me but it is here. I am sure everyone does a fine job at his or her skill set here on this forum you got what you got because you EARNED it and that is GREAT. What I am saying we have made it to where we cant recruit new MEDICS because of 1: cost 2: I have been told by some " if I spend that kind of money I should go be a RN" and that cool too... I am just also saying in my state West Virginia PEOPLE HERE DONT THINK LIKE the rest of us do.

Thanks to all thats commented on this.

 

[1badassEMT-I]

I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but here, if it's a degree program you can get financial aid to go to paramedic school. I think that makes it far more affordable as a degree, you pay it off a little at a time. $500 would barely cover the cost of books, and it is not as simple as "Make it cheaper! *poof!* it's cheaper!"

I would rather have a medic shortage and the medics you have be quality medics than to have an overabundance of medic mill wonders. Quite frankly, I'd rather have no medic at all than a bad medic, at least an EMT can't really hurt you with what they don't know (or think they know) while a medic's lack of knowledge and abundance of cool skills and meds could definitely hurt you.

You want more pay, more respect? That doesn't happen without higher standards and more education.



Please forgive me for being rude, but if you are so educated why don't your posts reflect that? I have been reading over your them and sometimes it is really hard to decipher exactly what you meant due to poor spelling, sentence structure and grammar. Maybe you type too fast and need to slow down.

Thats what it is!