Massacre of firefighters in NY ignites debate over EMT, firefighter safety

[DT4EMS]

Massacre of firefighters in NY ignites debate over EMT, firefighter safety

http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-massacr...iremen-carrying-guns-20121228,0,6791366.story

 

[STXmedic]

We should be allowed to carry guns. Multiple guns. All kinds of guns.




Guns.

 

[DT4EMS]

We should be allowed to carry guns. Multiple guns. All kinds of guns.




Guns.





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Kinda my point........ anytime we bring up the real issue of safety....... people crack jokes. The joking actually keeps victims of violence from telling their story for fear of being made fun of. It's a culture thing.

I have hundreds of emails from people sharing their stories of horrific assaults.....life effin changing incidents that they fell embarrassed to tell........

 

[VFlutter]

I still remember the St. Louis shooting quite well. How are you supposed to train for an ambush type attack? I guess you can be better prepared how to handle it once it happens but there isn't much you can do to prevent it.

 

[DT4EMS]

I still remember the St. Louis shooting quite well. How are you supposed to train for an ambush type attack? I guess you can be better prepared how to handle it once it happens but there isn't much you can do to prevent it.

Actually in Missouri, there were two "ambush" style. One was in KC (MAST Ambulance) Paramedic Mary Seymour was shot after being set up for a fire scene.. I think that was 2004. Then Ryan Hummel (sp) was shot and killed in Maplewood as he exited the truck--also responding to a fire scene.

With the ambush style....... there is not a ton that can be done. Cops and soldiers are killed on ambush style scenes........ and they have tons of training.

However........ this is what I do in class.......

I play the real audio from the ambush calls...... stop the tape and randomly ask participants.... "What do you do?" Quick, HURRY......... your partner is down WHAT DO YOU DO???!!!!

I usually get the response of "Radio for help" or "Drag my partner out of the line of fire"........ I scream. WRONG!!!

The first and most important thing to do is find cover first! Then formulate a plan.

A sniper wants to lure you out to the wounded "partner" so he can effin shoot you too!

So from behind cover, you radio for help, then coordinate efforts to rescue the downed partner.

 

[Aidey]

MAST actually had 3 if you include the killing of a Paramedic and EMT in their ambulance while posted. It was done by the husband, who had discovered the EMT and Medic were having an affair.

 

[DT4EMS]

MAST actually had 3 if you include the killing of a Paramedic and EMT in their ambulance while posted. It was done by the husband, who had discovered the EMT and Medic were having an affair.

Yes, thank you. I am familiar with that as well....... it was not the "ambush" style where the fire was set to lure responders, so I don't include it in the ambush topic.

I bring that one up when we talk about one of the 6 D's ...this "D" is the "Domestic"...... the shooting that occurred in the nursing home where several staff members were shot in NC was also due to an affair.

 

[DT4EMS]

And not to hack anyone off.....because I LOVE my EMTLife family...... but sometimes the jokes lead to actions........ because people say things like..... "I'd just whack em with the O2 Bottle" and how they would do this or that...... but then headlines like this appear........

 

[Aidey]

I was thinking of it as an ambush, since they were in a place where they felt safe and generally have an decreased risk of injury when they were attacked.

 

[DT4EMS]

I was thinking of it as an ambush, since they were in a place where they felt safe and generally have an decreased risk of injury when they were attacked.

True, by all means. It is just they were not responding to a report of a structure or vehicle fire like the others.

Still tragic nonetheless and nothing has changed safety wise. MAST actually sent a guy down to become an instructor in DT4EMS. He passed with flying colors....... then the FD took over.... and well....... politics are politics......

 

[mycrofft]

Not to trivialize the larger subject...

But nice product placement!

 

[abckidsmom]

DT4EMS, what is good cover inside a house? If you enter a house and then the guy starts shooting, is it better to spend energy looking for cover inside the house or looking for egress?

 

[mycrofft]

Both. Stay at ground level unless there is an unlocked/unlockable second means out of a bsement or second/etc floor. Jumping off a roof doesn't count unless it is unavoidable (oops sorry).

And remember Murphy's Law of combat # 17: Once you make it impossible for the enemy to get in, you have made it impossible to get out.

 

[medic417]

If you survive the ambush and have taken cover this is when having a firearm would be nice if you are properly educated in it's use. Otherwise unarmed you are sitting duck with much fewer options if the person decides to come finish the job. Why be limited? Prepare for the hand to hand, prepare for using other objects at hand, but also prepare for using lethal force if needed. And no just because a person carries does not mean they would play John Wayne and stand up and shoot it out.

 

[DT4EMS]

But nice product placement!

You can call it whatever you want. I'm tired of people being injured and hurt on the job, then we go speak somewhere and someone says "We never knew you existed". At least when they see a logo.... they go to the source. Have you seen how much safety information is on our site? FREE?

So check this out..... since you obviously think I have profited so much from this "product" let me set the record straight.......

Because I spend about 12 hours a day working on this stuff.... answering emails, phone calls and such.....I still had to hold down a full-time job. That left little time for a family and it caused a divorce a couple years ago.

Now, after that, I have since left my full-time job and strictly just do this. I do this because of the stories people tell me face to face...... and the emails, the texts and the Facebook messages.... and that I was a victim of violence on the job myself.

Not because of the money. You obviously don't know my character or you would never have suggested such a thing.

I would LOVE for this to pay me a salary. To date it has not. You sir, in your infinite wisdom have NEVER seen my presentation.......

So the next piece....... how the eff have I missed the bigger picture? I have stated there is a lack of training. Train the staff up to the level of an officer in regards to use of force and I will remove my reservations about arming EMS.

But if you mean it is on the ambush style..... DUDE.... we have covered that material is my courses since 1997!!!!!

I don't claim to be an expert in all areas of EMS...... but I am the named/recognized expert in the field of self-defense for EMS.

Now, I publicly invite YOU to Branson Missouri on February 25-26, 2013 to attend my class FREE of charge so you can meet the high level trainers that will be there from all over the country. Then, when you meet the credentialed folks that are spreading our message, see the course in it's entirety I WELCOME YOUR WRITTEN OPINION!

Then your followers here on EMTLife can have your educated, informed opinion.

 

[Veneficus]

Both. Stay at ground level unless there is an unlocked/unlockable second means out of a bsement or second/etc floor. Jumping off a roof doesn't count unless it is unavoidable (oops sorry).

And remember Murphy's Law of combat # 17: Once you make it impossible for the enemy to get in, you have made it impossible to get out.

To just expand on this a little.

The purpose of going to ground is to present the most minimal target to the shooter.

DT went over cover and concealment very well, but I would add, concealment is obviously not as good as cover, but it can be better than nothing. If you duck behind something, you can still be shot, but cannot be aimed at. It might seem like a small distinction, but if I had to choose between being shot in the head or somewhere else, I would pick somewhere else. Survival and recovery chances are better.

To answer the question, egress or search?

You always move towards cover, that will likely be outside. Drywall is not cover. A couch is not cover.

Some cover is also finite. It degrades with each hit.

Some things just to keep in mind.

 

[Shishkabob]

The fallacy of DTs view against allowing legal carry of EMS personnel is that he assumes that there are no consequences of improper use by the user. If it's deemed that the user should not have used the gun, they'll pay the price.

On top of that, you grossly over-estimate the amount of training, let alone continued training, that the average police officer actually receives on firearms usage, and assume that some CCW/CHL holder doesn't do their part in their own training.



Do you oppose the fact that many responders carry pocket knives with them on the job? Sure, they'll say it's a 'tool' when asked by the brass, but make no mistake, they (and I) carry it for self defense. Loophole of carrying weapons on the job. If I can't have a firearm per company policy, I'll arm myself anyway I can. I will win the fight. I don't fight fair, I fight to win.

 

[DT4EMS]

The fallacy of DTs view against allowing legal carry of EMS personnel is that he assumes that there are no consequences of improper use by the user. If it's deemed that the user should not have used the gun, they'll pay the price.

On top of that, you grossly over-estimate the amount of training, let alone continued training, that the average police officer actually receives on firearms usage, and assume that some CCW/CHL holder doesn't do their part in their own training.



Do you oppose the fact that many responders carry pocket knives with them on the job? Sure, they'll say it's a 'tool' when asked by the brass, but make no mistake, they (and I) carry it for self defense. Loophole of carrying weapons on the job. If I can't have a firearm per company policy, I'll arm myself anyway I can. I will win the fight. I don't fight fair, I fight to win.

When we talk about "average" EMSer........ you and those that practice are not in the average category.

I ask...... do you train weapon retention? Do you train weapon disarming for if your weapon retention fails?

I teach the TDK, and I will gladly introduce you to many street officers that I have disarmed during training.......... and I am not that good. The average officer has 3-5 tugs on his/her weapon before they understand a weapon retention situation exists.

Again....... we are talking about "as a whole". If you are certified, you train and have addressed the concerns I have....... I remove my reservations.

But again....... you MUST give people options between the use of the firearm and nothing. That is where the hundreds of hours of law enforcement training come in...... it is in the force options......

Again........ we drift from the biggest picture........ if violence against EMS/Fire is not an issue..... why is it people want to carry a gun on the job?

If we stood up together about this issue of the violence as we do about our right to carry we would see real change.

 

[DT4EMS]

Again, I am not anti-arming anyone...... I am against having any tool at the disposal of a person with a duty to act/respond without proper training.

In the images below, this was a simple MVC. Medic was checking out the driver, trooper shows up asks for ID and a weapon retention situation existed without warning.

 

[DT4EMS]

Again, I am not anti-arming anyone...... I am against having any tool at the disposal of a person with a duty to act/respond without proper training.

In the images below, this was a simple MVC. Medic was checking out the driver, trooper shows up asks for ID and a weapon retention situation existed without warning.

By the time officers are allowed to carry their firearms ON-DUTY it does equal hundreds of hours in USE-OF-Force training. A CCW class is not the same as what police get in the academy and in continuing education. Tell me a police department that allows officers "8 -hours" of training? (Re-qual is usually 4 hours quarterly or at least semi-annually.)
Check with a local law enforcement trainer and ask them all the subjects that go into use-of-force training. There is legal (when is it OK) then you have OPTIONS --all the stuff between nothing-- and the firearm (Taser/Baton/OC), then the range time (in the academy is usually 40+ hours) then after that you have scenario based training...... so the person is evaluated on the tool they chose under stress.

If we arm them, they have to have ALL of the tools.... not just nothing straight to the firearm.

Most cops carry a gun, go their whole career and never shoot someone. But, they have to lay hands on a person (no matter how slight) to take them into custody.

Most paramedics will never face a life threatening violent encounter, but 52% will experience physical violence. So the trick is to triage. Train for the probable, not just the possible.
I am against arming EMS until they meet the use of force standards taught to law enforcement.... because they will be in similar situations/scene.

On the note of additional training- Weapon retention, "shoot-don't shoot" scenarios, less-lethal options, weapon disarming (for if your weapon retention skills failed). Again, these are the things that make up the "hundreds of hours" in use of force training.

I am all for the citizens right to bear arms. EMS entering into possibly hostile scenes, a lot of times where grappling occurs.... is different than the average person with a concealed permit walking home from the park. So there must be additional training.

But let's not detract from the big picture...... violence, lethal or not, on EMS/Fire and nursing staff is out of control.
If the firearm debate is what brings awareness to the subject, then so be it. But research will show that lethal encounters for EMS/Fire are present, but are relatively small in comparison with injuries suffered from less-than lethal encounters.

Like I have said a thousand times.... Not all attacks on EMS/Fire are life threatening, they are all however, life changing. My life was forever changed when attacked on the ambulance. That is why I do what I do.
So....... How many more is it going to take before we change the way we train?