Massacre of firefighters in NY ignites debate over EMT, firefighter safety

[Veneficus]

You need to take this info to workman's comp, social security disability, and insurance companies.

The Golden rule.

"He who has the gold... makes the rules."

 

[mycrofft]

I'd rather see finite resources put into mandatory patient care-related AND SAFETY related training, especially lifting, scene safety, and driving (the by-far number one on the job killer of PEMS).

REFUSE to go into situations where you know there is danger, and leave if it develops.

Training on those needs to be mandatory. Call it "The Big Boys' and Girls' Pants Class" or something sexy, but the macho has to go.

If you are part of a law enforcement or other customarily armed service designed to go into danger, fine. On the other hand, with the spin down of the Afghan war, just call in the PJ's; they'll extract anyone from anywhere and will have some time on their hands..

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...3XnfUKPGOeeujAKd5oA4&ved=0CE8Q9QEwBg&dur=1003

 

[DT4EMS]

i'd rather see finite resources put into mandatory patient care-related and safety related training, especially lifting, scene safety, and driving (the by-far number one on the job killer of pems).

Refuse to go into situations where you know there is danger, and leave if it develops.

Training on those needs to be mandatory. Call it "the big boys' and girls' pants class" or something sexy, but the macho has to go.

If you are part of a law enforcement or other customarily armed service designed to go into danger, fine. On the other hand, with the spin down of the afghan war, just call in the pj's; they'll extract anyone from anywhere and will have some time on their hands..

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...3xnfukpgoeeujakd5oa4&ved=0ce8q9qewbg&dur=1003

beautifully put!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mycrofft]

I apologize for any offense. None taken.

You can call it whatever you want. I'm tired of people being injured and hurt on the job, then we go speak somewhere and someone says "We never knew you existed". At least when they see a logo.... they go to the source. Have you seen how much safety information is on our site? FREE?

So check this out..... since you obviously think I have profited so much from this "product" let me set the record straight.......

Because I spend about 12 hours a day working on this stuff.... answering emails, phone calls and such.....I still had to hold down a full-time job. That left little time for a family and it caused a divorce a couple years ago.

Now, after that, I have since left my full-time job and strictly just do this. I do this because of the stories people tell me face to face...... and the emails, the texts and the Facebook messages.... and that I was a victim of violence on the job myself.

Not because of the money. You obviously don't know my character or you would never have suggested such a thing.

I would LOVE for this to pay me a salary. To date it has not. You sir, in your infinite wisdom have NEVER seen my presentation.......

So the next piece....... how the eff have I missed the bigger picture? I have stated there is a lack of training. Train the staff up to the level of an officer in regards to use of force and I will remove my reservations about arming EMS.

But if you mean it is on the ambush style..... DUDE.... we have covered that material is my courses since 1997!!!!!

I don't claim to be an expert in all areas of EMS...... but I am the named/recognized expert in the field of self-defense for EMS.

Now, I publicly invite YOU to Branson Missouri on February 25-26, 2013 to attend my class FREE of charge so you can meet the high level trainers that will be there from all over the country. Then, when you meet the credentialed folks that are spreading our message, see the course in it's entirety I WELCOME YOUR WRITTEN OPINION!

Then your followers here on EMTLife can have your educated, informed opinion.

Noted, and thanks for the invite. Are there any closer to Calif?

Seriously, all media exposure is good, and everyone wants to be trained for free, so doing and repeating good training is hard. I hope it gets to be more lucrative and grow, not because you are "in it for the money", but you need to be to some degree. My CPR instruction mentor is about to throw in his towel over insufficient revenues, I have some idea.

By "larger picture" I meant worker's safety. Since I was commenting on the article you cited and it's good publicity (hence "product placement"), not worker safety, I was getting away from the seriousness of the ambush.

http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-massacre-of-firefighters-in-ny-ignites-debate-over-emts-firemen-carrying-guns-20121228,0,6791366.story

The media article had good repetition of names and was upbeat about the class. Use of the forum for it has been cleared by the mods and no one else is complaining, so it's kosher. Press on.

PS: as the king of the no-response threads, I'm flattered to read I have a following.

 

[DT4EMS]

Noted, and thanks for the invite. Are there any closer to Calif?

Seriously, all media exposure is good, and everyone wants to be trained for free, so doing and repeating good training is hard. I hope it gets to be more lucrative and grow, not because you are "in it for the money", but you need to be to some degree. My CPR instruction mentor is about to throw in his towel over insufficient revenues, I have some idea.

By "larger picture" I meant worker's safety. Since I was commenting on the article you cited and it's good publicity (hence "product placement"), not worker safety, I was getting away from the seriousness of the ambush.

http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-massacre-of-firefighters-in-ny-ignites-debate-over-emts-firemen-carrying-guns-20121228,0,6791366.story

The media article had good repetition of names and was upbeat about the class. Use of the forum for it has been cleared by the mods and no one else is complaining, so it's kosher. Press on.

PS: as the king of the no-response threads, I'm flattered to read I have a following.

Denver Paramedic Division runs classes on a regular basis. I will actually be out there again sometime in July. That is as close as we are for the moment. They have made it part of their academy. When I know a date I will PM you.

As far as product placement...... this is simply one of many interviews that have been conducted around the country on our safety movement. It just happened to be me in this one and it was filmed yesterday morning.

We are attacking the issues on multiple levels...... street providers say admin doesn't care, admin state.... we will care when the employees act like they want training. The culture has to change both inside and outside of our field. The average person in the public has no idea the stuff we face.

Let me leave with the absolute best advice on this whole subject........

There is a distinct difference between a patient and an attacker. Too much time is spent on making students worry about "abandonment" that is has providers staying too long on scenes or entering on scenes they should not.

Until there is a fundamental understanding of the shortcomings in training..... there will be no culture change.

 

[mycrofft]

Don't leave.

"There is a distinct difference between a patient and an attacker. Too much time is spent on making students worry about "abandonment" that is has providers staying too long on scenes or entering on scenes they should not."

Again, best wording. Had a family friend's son (FD EMS) over-penetrate a mall shooting and get shoed out by LE.

Denver...maybe. I'll check with the Mrs. Mycrofft.

 

[Shishkabob]

REFUSE to go into situations where you know there is danger, and leave if it develops.

Wish some of you would quit spouting that fallacy of a line. If this most recent incident of 2 deaths isn't proof enough that you can't always just leave, then I don't know what is.


Sometimes you don't have the option to leave. Sometimes the only option is to fight. To say otherwise is ignorant of facts, and if that's what you believe, you have NO business telling others they shouldn't be able to do what they deem necessary to protect themselves.



Someones pulls a knife or gun on you while on scene, you're more than welcome to turn your back to them and hope you're faster and get a clean exit. Me? I'm going off my training and my instincts. Could be verbal judo. Could be taking a life. Either way, it's me that's coming out on top.

 

[mycrofft]

Wish some of you would quit spouting that fallacy of a line. If this most recent incident of 2 deaths isn't proof enough that you can't always just leave, then I don't know what is.


Sometimes you don't have the option to leave. Sometimes the only option is to fight. To say otherwise is ignorant of facts 1. , and if that's what you believe, you have NO business telling others they shouldn't be able to do what they deem necessary to protect themselves 2. .

Conceivably I could be chased by a pack of feral dogs too.

A proper ambush doesn't present warning or opportunity to leave or defend. In fact, the proper tactic to counter a proper ambush is to charge it. These guys didn't even know where the fire was coming from precisely enough to fire back.

1. How many times in the last DECADE have civilian EMS crews in the USA been in the situation they HAD to "fight their way out" (or "in")? If there are any, in how many of those might they elect to proceed or remain because they felt they could conduct an armed response?

2. If I was the local sheriff, police chief or EMS director I sure would.( As a member of the forum...not so much). At least in urban and suburban settings, LE I worked with were sick and tired of armed citizens. This is not Somalia or a Brazilian favella.

OP is talking about being smart, not heeled.

 

[VFlutter]

. This is not Somalia or a Brazilian favella.

Are you sure about that? Just recently we had a young girl shot point blank in the face by a teenager trying to steal her cellphone. Every weekend there is multiple armed robberies, shootings, muders, etc in my city. Not sure where you are from but some places in this country are getting to that point.


According to this (stupid) website Saint Louis Missouri is more dangerous than Mogidishu Somalia :blink:

http://urbantitan.com/10-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-in-2011/

The data for this is wildly inaccurate

 

[bigbaldguy]

These ambush style killings really prove nothing. There is nothing someone could do to prevent these within the EMS/FF system. There may have been opportunities to prevent these killings and mistakes may well have been made but they probably don't have anything to do with FF/EMS. Mental health resources, corrections, the legal system, probably even neighbors and family all had far more impact on this then anything these poor FFs could have done/carried/worn/or been taught.



How would fighting help in an ambush scenario? That's kind of the point of an ambush, to neutralize your enemies ability to react. Most likely no amount of training or realistic armarment would have saved these guys. Their attacker had the high ground, the element of surprise and a bushmaster assault rifle. Pepper spray, baton, a glock none of this would have altered the situation in this particular situation. Luckily these types of violent encounters are very very rare. 99.99999% (totally made up but I bet it's close) of violent encounters in EMS are preventable by simply not going into a bad situation and when you do go in follow some very basic guidelines, and yes if the situation goes south get the hell out. I can't tell you the number of times I've been on a crew that decided they needed to wrestle with someone because they were drunk or stoned or just plain crazy. Guy starts wigging out and instead of everyone backing away and letting LE deal with it someone decides to put the guy in a headlock then gets popped in the nose by an elbow. Yes it's assault but it's completely preventable. Sure the manly thing to do is put the guy in a headlock but you know what screw manly. Manly is what gets people hurt, personally I'm putting distance between me and them.

Oh and never wrestle a guy with a gun. Unless you're in a completely open field with nowhere to hide for 100s of yards, run. Ever tried to hit something running serpentine? Me either but I bet it's a lot harder than holding on to a gun in a wrestling match just long enough to put a round in a persons gut.

 

[mycrofft]

We recently had a kid shot and killed over losing a fight over a gold cosmetic tooth. But this is not common, despite a big gang problem/culture here, being up to our navels in former state and local inmates and rejects from all over the northern half of CA (and quite a few from SoCal).

And I bet all those handguns were made and sold for the express purpose of escalating a dispute.

We're 'way past the OP's intent, I'll pipe down.:deadhorse:

 

[bigbaldguy]

Are you sure about that? Just recently we had a young girl shot point blank in the face by a teenager trying to steal her cellphone. Every weekend there is multiple armed robberies, shootings, muders, etc in my city. Not sure where you are from but some places in this country are getting to that point.


According to this (stupid) website Saint Louis Missouri is more dangerous than Mogidishu Somalia :blink:

http://urbantitan.com/10-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-in-2011/

The data for this is wildly inaccurate

Overall you're more likely to be assaulted/robbed in any UK country than the US. Last time I checked the US came in around 15 or 16 out of the developed countries for assaults. Also most assaults resulting in serious injury occur among poor minorities. While I know EMS is poorly compensated and there aren't a whole lot of us the truth is we aren't among the major demographic for being shot in the face because someone wants our cell phone

Has anyone seen a break down of crime statistics by race and socioeconomic class that is current? I remember seeing one years ago and it was pretty startling how once you go above poverty line the chance of being a victim of violent crime drops insanely. I'd love to find a current one but haven't had any luck.

 

[bigbaldguy]

We're 'way past the OP's intent, I'll pipe down.:deadhorse:

oops forgot I was part of the establishment again.

Ok back on topic everybody or no cookies and milk before bed time.

 

[mycrofft]

Yeah we noticed you threw off your disguise again!

 

[VFlutter]

the truth is we aren't among the major demographic for being shot in the face because someone wants our cell phone

That actually occurred in a fairly nice business area right down the street from the hospital to a non minority. Not sure what you mean by that statement, All demographics experience violent crime and EMS are the ones responding to them.

 

[DrParasite]

1. How many times in the last DECADE have civilian EMS crews in the USA been in the situation they HAD to "fight their way out" (or "in")? If there are any, in how many of those might they elect to proceed or remain because they felt they could conduct an armed response?

more often than you would probably believe. how many times has an EMS crew been in a life threatening situation with an armed assailant? EDP with a knife, unruly mob trying to tip over the ambulance, shots fired less than 200 ft away, it happens more often than you would probably believe.

2. If I was the local sheriff, police chief or EMS director I sure would.( As a member of the forum...not so much). At least in urban and suburban settings, LE I worked with were sick and tired of armed citizens. This is not Somalia or a Brazilian favella.

no, your right. this isn't Somalia. But go down to Camden, Detroit, St. Louis, Newark, Jersey City, South Bronx, Philly, Chester PA, and go into the not-so-nice areas, where everyone has a weapon but the unarmed EMS crews. shootings daily (or multiple times a day, esp on the summer weekends), violence against everyone, and not enough cops to deal with the crime. Yeah, it's not Somalia, but there are some areas that are as bad or worse.

Remember, a cop doesn't carry a gun to protect you, he (or she) carries a firearm to protect himself from those who would cause him harm.

btw, if someone is shooting at you, typically the best thing to do is put as must distance between you and the shooter as possible. If you can't do that, than put as much solid stuff between you and the shooter (typically a penetration resistant object).

BTW, a year and a half ago, a Long Island firefighter was shot while operating at a MVA. The engine or rescue showed up, and started taking fire, with 1 FF injured. It happens, probably more often than people would believe. oh, and any time a fire or ems crew is shot at , the apparatus received bullet holes, or you have confirmed shots fired in the area should be considered a public safety attack with poor shooting. just because they don't hit anyone, doesn't mean they couldn't.

 

[DrParasite]

another unarmed fire crew faces gunfire while on a run

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10846744/alabama-man-opens-fire-on-firefighters-no-one-hurt

 

[Shishkabob]

How would fighting help in an ambush scenario?

I suggest reading up on ambushes, then, as fighting is what is needed in an ambush. The moment you know it's an ambush, you fight hard, you fight aggressive, and you get out of the kill zone. Sometimes that involves charging the enemy, sometimes that means pulling back. But you fight.

Has anyone seen a break down of crime statistics by race and socioeconomic class that is current?

The majority of shooting homicide victims are black and have a criminal history themselves.

 

[mycrofft]

The majority of firearm homicides are between two people who know each other and a distance under eight feet, according to the deputies I worked with. The supposed it was mostly "black on black" but no statistics; more to the point would be numbers of firearm homicides per capita by (name a demographic); otherwise, some demographics like caucasian males, since numerically so prevalent, would appear to be at greater risk. Also, break it down by victikm versus shooter. Accidental/mistaken shootigs need to be looked at too. (I'm in favor of zip codes or city blocks of occurrence myself).

BTW, recent health care bill had an insertion sponsored by NRA to forbid collection data about firearm use from patients, according to our local paper.

 

[Veneficus]

Interesting along the same lines, most places I worked had mandatory reporting laws for firearm injuries.

Usually the official policy was of course: "We comply with the law to the fullest of our ability."

What really happened is we never reported it to anyone. Not out of laziness, but out of safety.

"That's the guy who called the cops..." was the mark of Cain.

It not only increased the chances you were assaulted, it might spur somebody to look for where you live.