Looking for some advice

[medic417]

Yeah, I'm sure they'd get a paid paramedic service. It would be inadequately paid, funded, and staffed, but they'd be paid.

It amazes me that we can decry the populace because no one cares anymore, but when you DO find an area where people just want to help we still find ways to say that they're destroying civilization as we know it.

Did you not read my post? One of if not the poorest areas in the nation. We went paid and are actually one of the higher paid in the nation thats not big city. So if we can find away your community can.

Your tradition is what is wrong with EMS. We do most of what we do because thats the way its always been done not because its whats best for the community. We do things that have been proven bad in medicine because thats the way we always have done it. It is time we forget tradition and start doing what needs done to provide our communitys with the best.

 

[AJ Hidell]

It amazes me that we can decry the populace because no one cares anymore, but when you DO find an area where people just want to help we still find ways to say that they're destroying civilization as we know it.

This whole "want to help" people thing is the biggest lie in EMS. Funny how few of these people ever seek any way to "help" their community that doesn't involve lights and sirens. I've seen several volunteer departments shut down over the years. And not once have I seen any of their departing members go volunteer to pick up trash, wash police cars, pave roads, mow the grass in the medians and parks, mop the floors at city hall, or drive school buses for free. It rarely has anything to do with "helping people" or "giving back" to the community. It's about a cool hobby that makes you (the generic "you", not you personally) feel like a hero.

By the way, they PAY people to do all those other jobs. Where do they find the money?

 

[PapaBear434]

By the way, they PAY people to do all those other jobs. Where do they find the money?

Simply put, people are willing to pay for it because it inconveniences them. Their streets being covered in garbage drives them nuts, because it's dirty and smells bad. However, a grandma falling down the stairs isn't that big of a deal, because it's not THEIR grandma falling do the stairs. Until it is, of course. Then they are pissed off because the ambulance took twenty minutes to get there and will write a nasty letter to the editor to that effect.

I am not going to make any apologies for what I am or what I am doing. I am bettering myself, my community, and yes I am volunteering my way
up the chain to do so. I am not willing to be the martyr you guys want me to be and be the one to fight whatever war you want us noobies to fight. I get that you've been at it a long time, and you have your ideas of what needs to change. For the record, I agree with most of what you say. But what I disagree with is how you seem to want to get there. You seem to want all unpaids to just go away, let people start getting hurt and sick without EMS support, and force people to face the need for EMS through threat of punishment (ie: they won't get help when they need it.)

Oh, and by the way, I DID help out the communities I lived in long before this. I was a police officer once upon a time. I worked security and organization for special events. I helped plant trees for almost ten years along side roadways in Michigan to prevent top soil erosion. I've helped, for free, to fix farmers old broken down equipment and tractors that they couldn't afford to repair but couldn't afford to do without.

Don't you dare tell me I do what I do because just I'm attracted to flashing lights. Yes, it's fun to drive fast with the wail going. Yes, it's good to actually feel appreciated for your work for once, as opposed to when I was an officer and caught nothing but grief from almost every call I was on. But if I wasn't choosing this as a career path, it would be nursing, or something else where I could feel like I was helping people when they needed it most.

 

[AJ Hidell]

Don't you dare tell me I do what I do because just I'm attracted to flashing lights.

And don't you dare accuse me of attacking you personally when I made it quite clear that I was not. This thread isn't about you. It's about advising the original poster with the best possible facts we can give him. That's what he asked us for.

That said, you yourself have admitted that you are doing this for selfish reasons that are based almost exclusively on what you want for you, not your community. I did not put those words into your mouth. And I respect you for admitting that much.

I'm not asking every volunteer to quit. I'm not stupid. I know that it won't happen until it is mandated by law because, like you, 99 percent of all volunteers are in it for themselves. And unlike you, they refuse to even consider that they could do more for their community by quitting than by continuing to volunteer. They would not quit unless forced to by law because they enjoy their little hobby too much. I'm simply spelling out the reality of the situation. Just because I cannot fix the problem does not mean that we should sweep it under the rug and pretend that it does not exist, justifying it with lies of no money and helping people. The first step in recovery is to admit we have a problem. This is a very big problem, and I refuse to deny it any longer.

 

[PapaBear434]

See, you view me as selfish. I don't see it that way. I can do the most to help people by becoming a medic. But I can not afford school. So, I do volunteer work under the contract that they will pay for my school in exchange for my time.

Now, I could do like others have done, and work a side job and pay for school without actually getting experience in the profession I plan on working in. But as my wife works and makes more money than I ever will in EMS, I decided to be the stay-at-home dad while I go to school. Thus, the ten or so shifts a month (only four are required) plus three days a week in school I put forth aren't a huge detriment to my home life and my two girls while I put myself through to be a medic.

You view my quest to be a medic as selfish, because I am doing it by different means than you did. I'm sorry, but I cannot afford to work a full time job, pay for daycare, and pay for school. Nor am I willing to put both my young girls in day care for a good chunk of their childhood.

My system pays you once as you're a medic. They pay for your school until then. Why is this a big deal? My system actually does what's right by medics while still manning one of the largest squads in the country, and still lets the trauma junkies get their kicks with lights and siren while remaining useful to the community.

Are you truly so myopic that you refuse to acknowledge any view but your own?

 

[AJ Hidell]

You view my quest to be a medic as selfish, because I am doing it by different means than you did.

You're still making assumptions about my motives here. I did it for the same reason that 99 percent of everyone else who joins EMS. It looked like a fun and exciting way to be a hero. But I was sixteen years old too. And I grew up. And the only thing I "volunteered" for to get school money was Vietnam, but I still got paid for it.

 

[VentMedic]

I would hate to see where all the other professions would be if their members had found as many excuses as those in EMS. It seems to be its own little colony that just passes these excuses around to each other decade after decade. I know many single mothers and fathers that managed to go for what they wanted because they knew it could give them a better paying career and benefit healthcare or whatever profession they chose.

My system actually does what's right by medics while still manning one of the largest squads in the country, and still lets the trauma junkies get their kicks with lights and siren while remaining useful to the community.

How are the medics to be taken seriously when you have "trauma junkies" distracting from something called patient care? A squad or company is only as strong as its weakest link and that doesn't have to mean titles such as EMT(P)s but rather the attitudes.

 

[Ridryder911]

Hence the problem what the majority of volunteers usually fail to see. They are stroked and cuddled to self feed their ego. What would occur if these volunteers were only allowed to be able to serve an amount of time until a professional system was to be developed? Let's say five years. How many would still volunteer to see that a true system were developed; knowing they had to prepare their community in establish funding and operations?

As we are quite aware of there are several communities that are remote and scarcely populated that a professional service may never occur. Those are the ones I honor; but for communities that can afford and refuse to do so based upon other factors is being neglect.

As mentioned by several posters that are volunteers is the basis of tradition. In lieu of providing professional services they much rather feed their own self satisfaction. If these "good hearted" citizens were really concerned would they not want to ensure the best care possible? Of course the leaders will never consider anything else if they do not know the system is flawed? Do you think there would ever be any mention otherwise?

I am glad to see that the new revised NHTSA curriculum and also the required transitional bridge course and re-testing of the NREMT. This is for many reasons. Obviously to increase the knowledge level of the basic EMT and Advanced level and with this possibly eliminate those that want to pursue another hobby and to achieve "warm fuzzy feelings" by performing medical care.

I always the same question to volunteers. What are you really doing for the system? Are you truly enhancing patient care or are you just satisfying your self needs?

Remember, if you are not helping the system; you are just part of the problem.

R/r 911

 

[medic417]

I do have to say this has been the most pleasant discussion of the Volly vs paid I have seen. Nice to see the input of experienced people w/o all the name calling.

VENT LOVE this statement of yours: "I would hate to see where all the other professions would be if their members had found as many excuses as those in EMS. It seems to be its own little colony that just passes these excuses around to each other decade after decade. I know many single mothers and fathers that managed to go for what they wanted because they knew it could give them a better paying career and benefit healthcare or whatever profession they chose. "


That point and the illustration of a brain surgeon by Rid should be enough to end any debate.

 

[PapaBear434]

I always the same question to volunteers. What are you really doing for the system? Are you truly enhancing patient care or are you just satisfying your self needs?

Remember, if you are not helping the system; you are just part of the problem.

R/r 911

You are ignoring the operative part of the description of my system.

They use volunteers, and TRAIN THEM TO MEDIC by sending them to college, at which point they start to pay you. How is this a bad thing? It's training people, FOR FREE. It has a large staff of people to help with a large call volume. It keeps more medics on the road than almost any other system out there.

Yes, there are those who will never advance past EMT-B, and just want to drive the ambulance and take vitals. Who cares? They aren't doing any harm, and the medics don't have to do it. They can concentrate on doing the real work of helping the folks.

Why is it that you guys can only see your way and no other? Would you see all volunteers kicked out of hospitals? No more Candy Stripers, orderlies, or people who come and take care of old folks in nursing homes? I mean, those are pretty nasty jobs at times, right? Someone should be getting paid good money to empty those bed pans and clean up the sheets!

Let the Basic volunteers run around and play hero. So long as they aren't hurting anyone, doing their job, and acting professional, what is the big deal so long as the medics on board are getting paid a living wage?

Right now, you senior guys are coming off as bitter old coots that seemingly get no enjoyment out of your work anymore. We get it, you want more respect and pay. So do I. But if you wanted the respect of a doctor, maybe you should have applied to med school.

This is the only feasible way that I'm going to get my degree and paramedic certification, and do something with my life that I see as very worthwhile. What you guys are saying is that since I can't afford it on my own and I'm not willing to take out a loan in an economic depression, that I am somehow destroying your little vision of society.

Sorry, guys. I'm doing this my way. This system isn't perfect, but I can't see why you guys have such a hatred of it. The level of care and education is increased, the number of medics is increased, and the numbers of lesser qualified but still qualified people on hand able to deal with emergencies is increased.

And you know what? By the time I'm done, it won't matter HOW I did it. I'm still going to be a medic, with all the same credentials and certifications as you, and I'll likely be getting paid the same as well. Go figure.

As said, I admire your guys goals, but greatly disagree with your methods. You do your cause no good by saying everyone involved with the system that isn't you is killing it. All you do is alienate them. You discourage and degrade folks that, even for all the hero-play, just want to help, you aren't exactly pushing them to medic. You are just making them feel unappreciated and unwanted, and they'll ultimately leave.

That all said, I'm done with this debate. For all your guys wailing at the heavens, I don't see many campaigns for education or trying to get people to organize and tell the governments to pay for an all-medic program. No, all you guys are doing is going on a forum and telling people they should quit because they are useless if they don't do it exactly your way. Nothing is going to change your mind, and the same can be said on my end. Whatever the case, we are all in the same boat whether we get paid or not, and do the same job.

I'll see you on the road.

 

[AJ Hidell]

Let the Basic volunteers run around and play hero. So long as they aren't hurting anyone, doing their job, and acting professional, what is the big deal so long as the medics on board are getting paid a living wage?

Very few basics would even have a clue that they were hurting someone. That is the problem with the basic level. It's just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Right now, you senior guys are coming off as bitter old coots that seemingly get no enjoyment out of your work anymore. We get it, you want more respect and pay.

No, you do not get it. Vent, Rid, and I all get paid quite well because we have advanced our educations and found our "special purpose" in the profession. You vollies make the mistake of projecting your selfishness upon everyone else, assuming that we only care about ourselves as you do. This is not the case. There are plenty of us out here who are fighting for the profession, not for our own little piece of the pie. If it advances the profession as a whole, then I don't care how it affects me personally. Neither does Rid or Vent or medic417. The difference between you and us is that we have been where you are at and have grown professionally along the way, developing the insight that we currently have into reality. You, on the other hand, know nothing but what you currently have. It's all you know. And because it suits YOUR personal needs, you are either unwilling to rock the boat.

Sorry, guys. I'm doing this my way. This system isn't perfect, but I can't see why you guys have such a hatred of it.

Quoted to illustrate the spot-on validity of my last statements.

And you know what? By the time I'm done, it won't matter HOW I did it. I'm still going to be a medic, with all the same credentials and certifications as you, and I'll likely be getting paid the same as well. Go figure.

Man, you just dig yourself deeper. This is the clearest illustration so far of how little you understand about the profession you have chosen. If you think everyone with a patch is equal, then you have a very long way to go to become a professional. This, however, is very typical rhetoric of paramedic students and new graduates. And too many never get a clue to understand differently. That's why they get a 6 month paramedic patch, and then spend the rest of their careers completing only the bare minimum requirements of CEUs to maintain it. They think their patch is all they'll ever need to be a good medic. The patch does not make the medic. It is how you practice that makes the medic. I have faith that you will outgrow that attitude and become better than they are.

You do your cause no good by saying everyone involved with the system that isn't you is killing it.

And you do yourself a disservice by misquoting the things we say, as you have done several times in this discussion. I'll say it again: it isn't about us. It isn't about you. It is about the profession and the patients we serve. Until you are able to see that, you are not a professional.

All you do is alienate them.

How concerned are you about alienating people who are screwing up your world? Do you lose sleep over it?

You discourage and degrade folks that, even for all the hero-play, just want to help, you aren't exactly pushing them to medic. You are just making them feel unappreciated and unwanted, and they'll ultimately leave.

Excellent! It's called tough love. The weak, with the delicate "feelings" aren't cut out for this profession. The strong will not only survive, but they will excel in order to prove to us and to themselves that they have what it takes. Those will be the future professionals of our field, not the ones who went away crying because they didn't get enough hugs.

That all said, I'm done with this debate.

You said that before. And I will reply the same way again; it's your loss.

For all your guys wailing at the heavens, I don't see many campaigns for education or trying to get people to organize and tell the governments to pay for an all-medic program.

Well then you obviously are not much to keep up with the current news and trends in EMS. It's happening all around us. States have gone to degree requirements for entry level medics, and more already have plans to follow. The NREMT is moving quickly to weed out all the fly by night tech schools. Communities everywhere are disbanding their volly squads to implement full-time professional services, often with fire department EMS. Change is in the air. The snowball is rolling downhill, and the momentum is gaining. It is only those who isolate themselves in their own limited surroundings who fail to see it.

No, all you guys are doing is going on a forum and telling people they should quit because they are useless if they don't do it exactly your way.

So we should avoid telling the truth because people like you find it uncomfortable? This refusal to even consider the greater good is what is holding us back. You want to "help people"? Nonsense. You don't even want to "help" your own profession. You only want to help yourself. But I suppose that you can rest with an easy conscience knowing that you are in the majority.

 

[sir.shocksalot]

Quick, get the cor drugs ready, this thread doesn't have long to live.

 

[medic417]

sir.shocksalot "Quick, get the cor drugs ready, this thread doesn't have long to live."

This is a productive discusion of various opinions. To lock it would show an unwillingness to consider matters that are uncomfortable for some and I am sure the mods are not that way. They value an educational discussion of differing views such as this.

 

[sir.shocksalot]

sir.shocksalot "Quick, get the cor drugs ready, this thread doesn't have long to live."

This is a productive discusion of various opinions. To lock it would show an unwillingness to consider matters that are uncomfortable for some and I am sure the mods are not that way. They value an educational discussion of differing views such as this.

Unfortunately some people are expressing their opinions a little too aggressively.

 

[AJ Hidell]

Well at least they are expressing an opinion on the topic at hand, and not derailing the thread with their opinions of the thread itself.

 

[Foxbat]

I don't really care about the argessiveness, there are some far more volly-bashing places out there. It's just this topic has been beaten to death on this forum alone for about 1000 times and I did not see anyone change their mind in the process.
For the record, I'm sorry I brought this topic up. My only excuse is that original topic (waiting of going straight to medic school) is about as beaten to death as this one.

 

[medic417]

Unfortunately some people are expressing their opinions a little too aggressively.

I disagree even the rude volunteer supportor was not that aggressive. And the professionals pointed out their views w/o attacking.

 

[PapaBear434]

AJ, I'm just going to correct a few things.

My medic school is not a patch factory. It's a four year medic program, and ends with a BS in paramedic medicine.

And "tough love" is great for the folks that are already in the profession, as in "already medic level." But "tough love" becomes "real ****ish behavior" when you are trying to attract people to the profession.

I'm very happy that you, Rid, and the others have found your niche and make such good money. I would like to get there as well. But without a way to pay for school, I don't see how I'm suppose to do that. I imagine my pharm class would be pretty upset if I didn't pay and just showed up anyway.

I am not selfish, as I would LOVE for everyone to get paid. But I need to work my way up to medic first, and I can't afford school. What would you have me do? Just give up and go bag groceries instead? Here is a way for me, and others, to get a degree and a quality education, the very one you claim is so very vital to make a good medic. Even if it is just a start on the education, which I am sure will expand as time goes on and one furthers their knowledge, it's a good way to get started without putting yourself into the poor house doing so.

So, I ask you again: How would you propose I get my degree, if not like this?

 

[PapaBear434]

I disagree even the rude volunteer supportor was not that aggressive. And the professionals pointed out their views w/o attacking.

It's hard to restrain ALL bile and vitriol when you are being told from multiple angles that you are everything that is wrong with the world.

 

[AJ Hidell]

Man, I'd hate to be your physician when it comes time to give you bad news. You're not particularly good about accepting things you don't want to hear.