Looking for some advice

[Sasha]

But without a way to pay for school, I don't see how I'm suppose to do that.

Are you not eligible for grants, and loans? I've got two loans and a very small grant to significantly decrease the out of pocket expense.

 

[PapaBear434]

Are you not eligible for grants, and loans? I've got two loans and a very small grant to significantly decrease the out of pocket expense.

Even if I was eliglble (was turned down for many, and the ones I did get barely bought a book), wouldn't I be called a drain on society by many others for leaching grants when there was a perfectly good program to give me my education in exchange for work provided?

It's a matter of perspective. To some, I'm a drain on the system. To others, I'm exchanging fair work for fair compensation.

Then again, the reason I was never eligible was because we had a crap load of money tied up in investments. Now that this money is largely been flushed down the toilet, maybe I'm eligible now.

AJ Hidell

Man, I'd hate to be your physician when it comes time to give you bad news. You're not particularly good about accepting things you don't want to hear.

Thing is, I'm sure his statements would be based on medical findings and not personal opinion and bias. If he walked in and told me I had cancer, I'd be mortified and distraught, but I'd probably believe him. If he walked and told me I was ugly and those of German decent were the reason he can't afford a Beamer, I'd be a little less likely to take him seriously.

Look, I respect your experience and knowledge, but I'm not willing to accept that I'm destroying OUR profession because I am finding a way to pay for my schooling that doesn't include me putting myself into crippling debt in a very tough economic time.

I ask you again: How would YOU recommend I get my schooling without sacrificing my daughters' upbringing or my financial future?

 

[Ridryder911]

I ask you again: How would YOU recommend I get my schooling without sacrificing my daughters' upbringing or my financial future?

I worked over 100 hours a week and did it. Never once with completion of four degrees did I ever take a student loan out and yes, I had a family, mortgage and no family to depend upon. I remember not even going home for 6 weeks straight. Nobody accelerates or advances without sacrifices. It is deciding what sacrifices makes the difference.

What if an employer offered a contract for school loans? Something I am pushing for. Personally, I refused them but it would be an alternative to loans. Also, I would not consider you "sucking" off society if you did proceed and give back as in they way of working and putting back into the economy.

Again, how important is the EMS profession and as a profession is to you?

R/r 911

 

[Sasha]

Even if I was eliglble (was turned down for many, and the ones I did get barely bought a book), wouldn't I be called a drain on society by many others for leaching grants when there was a perfectly good program to give me my education in exchange for work provided?

It's a matter of perspective. To some, I'm a drain on the system. To others, I'm exchanging fair work for fair compensation.

Then again, the reason I was never eligible was because we had a crap load of money tied up in investments. Now that this money is largely been flushed down the toilet, maybe I'm eligible now.

I always thought you got stafford loans regardless, the grants are what had been dependant on income. Ah well. I sign the paper, they give me the money, I pay the money back when I'm done.

If you're not eligible for a grant and don't want to be a "drain" why not take a loan?

 

[AJ Hidell]

Then again, the reason I was never eligible was because we had a crap load of money tied up in investments. Now that this money is largely been flushed down the toilet, maybe I'm eligible now.

LOL! Don't mean to laugh at your situation. It's one that more and more people are experiencing. But it is certainly a good point.

Thing is, I'm sure his statements would be based on medical findings and not personal opinion and bias. If he walked in and told me I had cancer, I'd be mortified and distraught, but I'd probably believe him.

I disagree with the analogy. His diagnosis is simply an informed and educated opinion based upon the preponderance of the evidence. And that is exactly what I am giving you, an informed and educated opinion based upon nearly forty years of evidence. There is really no difference.

Look, I respect your experience and knowledge, but I'm not willing to accept that I'm destroying OUR profession because I am finding a way to pay for my schooling that doesn't include me putting myself into crippling debt in a very tough economic time.

I appreciate that, as well as appreciating your situation. If I did not think you were an intelligent and reasonable man, I wouldn't have continued with the discussion.

I ask you again: How would YOU recommend I get my schooling without sacrificing my daughters' upbringing or my financial future?

Well again, I want to make it perfectly clear that this is not about you. As I stated more than once already, I understand that people and communities all have different circumstances to contend with. And I acknowledged that no one man will make a difference by falling on a sword of principle. I never expected that from you or anyone else. All I expect is philosophical integrity. I want people to know and understand the depth of the issue, and to be honest with themselves as they choose their path, instead of arguing against the obvious truth in order to try and spare themselves some guilt. You have done that, and I honestly respect it. I only hope that the profession turns out to be what you really wanted. I don't know what your department is paying paramedics, but if they are so cash strapped that they have to rely on volunteers, that generally means that they probably aren't paying what a man raising two kids would like to make. And if the volunteer system is the norm in your area, then you may be left with very few options for the future, which is precisely my point that by taking this route, you may be limiting the potential of the very future you are working for. I do wish you the best of luck.

 

[Ms.Medic]

Or they could use the intelligence and common sense that God gave them to be a little creative and figure out that, just because the firemen work 24 hour shifts does not mean that we have to continue that tradition. Work out a shift arrangement that doesn't require sleeping quarters. How hard is that?

As for the money, don't get me started. Did you see the budgets that were just passed by the Congress to address pig odors and Frisbee golf courses? Don't tell me this country lacks the funds to pay for EMS. It's a lie. And don't tell me your community doesn't either. They manage to pay the teachers and school bus drivers, the city hall janitors and mechanics, the water department and street department workers without volunteers. Nobody picks up garbage for free in your community. So puhleeze... it's all a lie.

I totally agree about the volunteer situation, I in NO WAY, want my families lives in the hands of volunteers with little or no certifications, especially woodchucks that drive eratic w lights and sirens on their cars. How un-professional, how tacky, and immature. All that says about them is "look at me", "look at me", "I need some attention". Yes I also believe that it causes pay problems.


BUT, we could cut cost in other places as well that would probably help more than just a little, like below.

By having a "911" taxi service. If the caller answers certain questions in a certain way that tells the trained dispatcher that it is clearly NOT a real emergency,

ie:
Dispatch: 911, what is your emergency ?
caller : My mama aint ackin righ
Dispatch: Whats the problem ?
caller : She didn get hu check in da mail, she runnin all over da house ackin a foo dawg
Dispatch : We'll send the police right over
caller : Naw, you need to send ems dawg, we tryin to have a party and need hu gone up out dis house fo a few hours. She need to stay in da hospital for da night.
Dispatch: Yes sir, anything you need, we'll have ems there in just a few minutes.


This was a true call.



How about educating the repeated callers for "taxi rides" to the hospital on whats a true emergency and whats not, adn not allowing them to take advantage of the system like this. The Government, County judges, and every other judge is partially to blame for high cost for granting people like this compensation for these type of calls. All it takes is to be told one time, " Im sorry, you can sue for that, But I as a judge am not going to award you ANYTHING".

Or, letting people know about services within their community, thats a free service, to "taxi" to the hospital, to keep ambulances open for true emergencies.

 

[PapaBear434]

I worked over 100 hours a week and did it. Never once with completion of four degrees did I ever take a student loan out and yes, I had a family, mortgage and no family to depend upon. I remember not even going home for 6 weeks straight. Nobody accelerates or advances without sacrifices. It is deciding what sacrifices makes the difference.

What if an employer offered a contract for school loans? Something I am pushing for. Personally, I refused them but it would be an alternative to loans. Also, I would not consider you "sucking" off society if you did proceed and give back as in they way of working and putting back into the economy.

Again, how important is the EMS profession and as a profession is to you?

R/r 911

Very important, actually, which is why I am getting quite offended by the implication that I and all volunteers are selfish glory-hounds out for the rush. I am off to a late start, and am not willing to sacrifice my daughter's to the alter of daycare for the sake of my career, but that doesn't make me any less dedicated to it.

Personally, I view this as being a contract in exchange for school funds. They just don't ask for many hours in exchange for not actually paying me. Four 48 hours a month, I get thousands of dollars every semester in tuition and books I don't have to pay for (I do have to cover any non-medical, general education classes I have to take to get my degree.)

Nor do I plan on getting my medic in two and a half years from now and stopping there. I want my RN, dang it. My wife is going for her masters degree, likely for CRNA, so I figure why can't I? The kids will be older then, and I will be able to dedicate more of my time without feeling guilty.

Just because I am currently not getting paid directly for my time doesn't mean that I don't consider this my job. I have a regular shifts, I work out of actual firehouses with real ambulances (no light bars on our POV's, thanks) and an actual uniform (though it's a little more utility than it is dress.)

But I can tell you all day how dedicated I am to it, and it would still be up to you to believe me. And I don't know if you can ever get past the idea that "volunteer" does not necessarily have to mean "worthless." In my case, it's just a means to an end. I can get my schooling in, I can spend time with my girls, and since I don't have a "day job," taking up my time, I can concentrate more time and effort into my studies and have a decent night's sleep before I practice my skills on a patient.

A lot of folks see volunteers as worthless, and not worthy of having anything to do with EMS. I am hoping you will prove to be a little more reasonable.

With that in mind, here is my cheesy-*** story to try to convince you of my intentions.

Yes, as a kid I always wanted to be the hero. I wanted to be the guy that, when I showed up, people were happy and grateful that I arrived. I thought at the time that meant I wanted to be a cop. After I was injured, I had time to think about what I was doing while I recovered. Ultimately, I decided it wasn't for me. I also realized that the times that I felt I was helping people the most is when I was helping them in the kinds of situations I work in now.

I once took over CPR for a medic after he and his partner were spent, so they could concentrate on the meds. The woman survived, after a few weeks on a vent. I helped take care of a little kid with a broken leg, holding it still while I tried to calm him down, until Fire/Rescue showed up. I decided that being an officer had too much dealing with trying to protect myself against the public and not actually helping people. I just wasn't happy doing what I was doing, but still wanted to help people. That little kid in me still wanted to put on the cape and be a hero.

Course, that was when my wife was starting nursing school, and we had our two daughters, so it was just easier and cheaper for me to stay home and take care of the girls and let her concentrate on her studies (Navy still paid her, thankfully). I knew I wanted to be a medic, but I was still waiting to get it done. Now that she's out of school, it's my turn to get my education. But as said, money is still a little tight. And Ensign makes less money than you would think, and considering how much money we had tied up in the stock market that's now effectively gone, I wasn't looking at going to school for quite a while.

Then, I found out that my neighboring sister city had a volunteer rescue squad, and that they pay for your schooling and degree program in exchange for your work. I decided that I was 26 years old, and that if I waited much longer it was never going to happen. If I passed up on this opportunity, I would probably give up on my having a career in the field altogether, thinking I was just simply too old to do so.

Yes, I still want to be the hero. But no, that doesn't just mean driving a truck fast through traffic with blinky lights, fun as it may be. Just because I want to appease my inner child doesn't mean I am deluded to into thinking that is all there is to it.

 

[PapaBear434]

I always thought you got stafford loans regardless, the grants are what had been dependant on income. Ah well. I sign the paper, they give me the money, I pay the money back when I'm done.

If you're not eligible for a grant and don't want to be a "drain" why not take a loan?

Why take the loan if I can get it paid for? Seriously? Why willingly put yourself so heavily in debt when you don't have to?

 

[Sasha]

Why take the loan if I can get it paid for? Seriously? Why willingly put yourself so heavily in debt when you don't have to?

So you don't want to be a Medic if you can't get it for free?

 

[PapaBear434]

Well again, I want to make it perfectly clear that this is not about you. As I stated more than once already, I understand that people and communities all have different circumstances to contend with. And I acknowledged that no one man will make a difference by falling on a sword of principle. I never expected that from you or anyone else. All I expect is philosophical integrity. I want people to know and understand the depth of the issue, and to be honest with themselves as they choose their path, instead of arguing against the obvious truth in order to try and spare themselves some guilt. You have done that, and I honestly respect it. I only hope that the profession turns out to be what you really wanted. I don't know what your department is paying paramedics, but if they are so cash strapped that they have to rely on volunteers, that generally means that they probably aren't paying what a man raising two kids would like to make. And if the volunteer system is the norm in your area, then you may be left with very few options for the future, which is precisely my point that by taking this route, you may be limiting the potential of the very future you are working for. I do wish you the best of luck.

As I said, I don't know how much the medics get paid. I know it must be enough, because all of them seem to be driving nice cars and only have this as their job. So, it can't be terrible. We did recently go on a hiring freeze, as the economic situation has gotten bad here as well as everywhere else, but they are still paying for everyone's school who is willing to go.

Just a different way of doing things, as I said.

But, yes, this is something that I've wanted for the better part of the last decade, and only now really went after.

 

[Ms.Medic]

I ask you again: How would YOU recommend I get my schooling without sacrificing my daughters' upbringing or my financial future?

You could do it like me, I put myself through school without a grant, loan, or any handout from my family. I was a single mother of two, with a mortgage of 1200.00 a month, working nights for the sheriffs dept, my note for my tahoe of 450.00, and paying 600.00 a month for daycare. I have worked EXTREMELY HARD to get here, it has cost me valuable time with my children, I had to leave behind relationships, my social life was completely non existent, and there was literally times where I was up for 72 hours at a time, I'll swear to it. I still had dinner on the table every evening, did homework w my kids, and made it to a lot of their school functions, granted I couldnt do as much as I wanted to though. I saved my tax returns for 3 years, and like I said, my social life was literally NON existent. There is no excuse out there that I would ever consider having pitty for after everything I have been through to get here. I know with all of my heart, if you want it bad enough, theres not an excuse in the world to keep you from it.... I did it, and I will be VERY happy to say that after trying hard, saving even harder, 7 years of wanting it with all of my heart, Im at the end and now my national registry will be in 3 days. NO EXCUSES !!! Just DO IT, and want it with all of your heart.

 

[PapaBear434]

So you don't want to be a Medic if you can't get it for free?

I think you are making a rather simplistic argument out of it. As I said, this is something I certainly wanted ever since I decided that the police department wasn't for me. That was back when I was twenty. With all the money me and the wife were putting away for retirement, doing the whole "responsible" thing and planning for our future, I was looking at taking out a considerable amount of money in student loans.

Again, why do that if you don't have to? Yeah, I WOULD pay if there were no other option. But there is. These people pay for it, and I get experience all the way up.

The economy is crapping out to an unprecedented degree, so why purposefully put yourself in debt? To prove a point? Show how "legit" I am?

 

[PapaBear434]

You could do it like me, I put myself through school without a grant, loan, or any handout from my family. I was a single mother of two, with a mortgage of 1200.00 a month, working nights for the sheriffs dept, my note for my tahoe of 450.00, and paying 600.00 a month for daycare. I have worked EXTREMELY HARD to get here, it has cost me valuable time with my children, I had to leave behind relationships, my social life was completely non existent, and there was literally times where I was up for 72 hours at a time, I'll swear to it. I still had dinner on the table every evening, did homework w my kids, and made it to a lot of their school functions, granted I couldnt do as much as I wanted to though. I saved my tax returns for 3 years, and like I said, my social life was literally NON existent. There is no excuse out there that I would ever consider having pitty for after everything I have been through to get here. I know with all of my heart, if you want it bad enough, theres not an excuse in the world to keep you from it.... I did it, and I will be VERY happy to say that after trying hard, saving even harder, 7 years of wanting it with all of my heart, Im at the end and now my national registry will be in 3 days. NO EXCUSES !!! Just DO IT, and want it with all of your heart.

While I appreciate that you did it and had a hard time of it, your situation is not mine. I found a way to get my medic WITHOUT all the horrible hardships. Because I didn't suffer for it, will that make me less of a medic?

If your level of suffering is your measure of a medic or how much one wants it, then you are just as selfish as AJ purports me to be. You are doing it as part a persecution complex.

Now, of course I don't believe that your actually a selfish person, or that you have a persecution complex, but you seem to want everyone else to go through just as much as you. Though I want this, I'm not willing to let my home and family life suffer for it.

 

[Ms.Medic]

but you seem to want everyone else to go through just as much as you. Though I want this, I'm not willing to let my home and family life suffer for it.

How in the world do you figure that I would want anyone to go through what I had to by me stating that you shouldnt make excuses?


Why did you even start in with this discussion, if you already know that you cannot afford it? You asked how you should go about it, but then you say your not willing to let things go for it ???? Im certainly not saying to let your home and family life suffer, but then thats when you need to take a look at another career that you are able to do, right ??? AND, you think that your family and home wont suffer for you spending all the time your gone and gas money to volunteer ??? WRONG. I'd start putting a little more time and "gas money" aside for an education instead of wasting it on your volunteering if I were you.

 

[Ridryder911]

Very important, actually, which is why I am getting quite offended by the implication that I and all volunteers are selfish glory-hounds out for the rush. I am off to a late start, and am not willing to sacrifice my daughter's to the alter of daycare for the sake of my career, but that doesn't make me any less dedicated to it.

Personally, I view this as being a contract in exchange for school funds. They just don't ask for many hours in exchange for not actually paying me. Four 48 hours a month, I get thousands of dollars every semester in tuition and books I don't have to pay for (I do have to cover any non-medical, general education classes I have to take to get my degree.)

Nor do I plan on getting my medic in two and a half years from now and stopping there. I want my RN, dang it. My wife is going for her masters degree, likely for CRNA, so I figure why can't I? The kids will be older then, and I will be able to dedicate more of my time without feeling guilty.

Just because I am currently not getting paid directly for my time doesn't mean that I don't consider this my job. I have a regular shifts, I work out of actual firehouses with real ambulances (no light bars on our POV's, thanks) and an actual uniform (though it's a little more utility than it is dress.)

But I can tell you all day how dedicated I am to it, and it would still be up to you to believe me. And I don't know if you can ever get past the idea that "volunteer" does not necessarily have to mean "worthless." In my case, it's just a means to an end. I can get my schooling in, I can spend time with my girls, and since I don't have a "day job," taking up my time, I can concentrate more time and effort into my studies and have a decent night's sleep before I practice my skills on a patient.

A lot of folks see volunteers as worthless, and not worthy of having anything to do with EMS. I am hoping you will prove to be a little more reasonable.

Yes, I still want to be the hero. But no, that doesn't just mean driving a truck fast through traffic with blinky lights, fun as it may be. Just because I want to appease my inner child doesn't mean I am deluded to into thinking that is all there is to it.

I don't find them worthless but more of an annoyance. They hemper professionalism and improvement within the EMS system.

Facts:
EMT curriculum was watered down due directly to the protest of Volunteer agencies.

Care and safety of the patient was NOT the main intent, rather to be able to keep traditional systems and to help keep retention of members.

The worries of increasing additional education and responsibilities were directly fought by volunteer groups.

One of the most advisory groups against any curriculum changes and making EMS more pro-medical has and is currently volunteer agencies.

Now, do you see why professional providers are offended? You are new to the profession. Attempt in quitting being offended and know and learn the industry. You will learn why the bitterness.

Ask your wife, if she would volunteer as a RN until she obtained her CRNA? You will learn about student loans if your alike most other family that have someone in nurse anesthetist school. Most require the minimum of 3-4 years practicum with no or minimal stipend.

You are in a unique situation. I don't think volunteers are stupid or even their intent is always wrong, but unfortunately they do not see the whole picture. EMS is much larger than just providing an ambulance to someone. Something that training and education systems drastically fail to address and teach to students and medics fail to recognize. In fact, having an ambulance is just one small tiny part of EMS.

p.s. Quit worrying about being a hero. Provide excellent care with intelligence of education and knowledge and sharp skills. Hero status is usually reserved for those that have died while attempting to change things.

R/r 911

 

[Foxbat]

And I acknowledged that no one man will make a difference by falling on a sword of principle. I never expected that from you or anyone else. All I expect is philosophical integrity. I want people to know and understand the depth of the issue, and to be honest with themselves as they choose their path, instead of arguing against the obvious truth in order to try and spare themselves some guilt.

If quitting (I guess that's what you meant by falling on sword) will make no difference, what do you want us to do, continue volunteering but recognize we are selfish, ignorant people who harm society?

 

[PapaBear434]

You are in a unique situation. I don't think volunteers are stupid or even their intent is always wrong, but unfortunately they do not see the whole picture. EMS is much larger than just providing an ambulance to someone. Something that training and education systems drastically fail to address and teach to students and medics fail to recognize. In fact, having an ambulance is just one small tiny part of EMS.

p.s. Quit worrying about being a hero. Provide excellent care with intelligence of education and knowledge and sharp skills. Hero status is usually reserved for those that have died while attempting to change things.

R/r 911

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think my system is part of that same problem. Volunteers that want to are ultimately groomed to be medics, and those that don't are used as grunt labor to help with the heavy lifting. They are held to a very high standard of professionalism, and anyone who doesn't meet that criteria are removed quickly (being a volunteer thing, there is no probationary time needed before canning someone for bad behavior.) There is always at least one medic on board, which is more than I can say for a lot of places around the country. And since training is for all intents and purposes free, most people at least take themselves to EMT-I which raises the general level of care dramatically.

I can understand your perspective, but I think there is still room for a volunteer system.

As far as my wife volunteering, she's a pediatric specialty, so she also volunteers as the local children's hospital in the NICU. She does this because she wants to, but also because the intensive care experience and hours logged will help her get into her University of Michigan CRNA program. Volunteering as a means to an end. Yes, she could be moonlighting and actually getting PAID for it, but she figures she can give back this way.

Also, I meant "hero" in the more philosophical sense. After I get done with a call right now, even something simple like an old lady that fell on the garage floor and fractured a hip or a wrist, I feel really good that I was there to help. To her, I could be a hero, or just some big ape that put her on a cold back board and wouldn't give her any pain killers. But in my own head, I know I was there when she needed help. That's enough for me.


Oh, and Ms. Medic, I'm sorry you took offense. I thought you were suggesting that I should go through all of that same stuff you did simply to fall on the sword and avoid the big bad volunteer system. My misunderstanding, my mistake, my apologies.

No sarcasm, I really mean that.

 

[AJ Hidell]

But, yes, this is something that I've wanted for the better part of the last decade, and only now really went after.

Okay, but now I am REALLY confused, lol. You want to be a nurse? If being a medic is such a huge dream for you, why are you already planning to go do something else as soon as you get it? This just isn't making any sense. And it's back-asswards. If you're going to do both, then RN to medic is the MUCH preferable path to take, and the much easier path too. I cannot even begin to impress upon you how much better it is for you to be a nurse before a medic, instead of the other way around. I sure wish I had gone that route. I'd be a much better provider today. Not to mention that, if you're a nurse first, you don't have to worry about how you're going to pay for medic school, lol.

 

[PapaBear434]

Okay, but now I am REALLY confused, lol. You want to be a nurse? If being a medic is such a huge dream for you, why are you already planning to go do something else as soon as you get it? This just isn't making any sense. And it's back-asswards. If you're going to do both, then RN to medic is the MUCH preferable path to take, and the much easier path too. I cannot even begin to impress upon you how much better it is for you to be a nurse before a medic, instead of the other way around. I sure wish I had gone that route. I'd be a much better provider today. Not to mention that, if you're a nurse first, you don't have to worry about how you're going to pay for medic school, lol.

You think YOU'RE confused... No, I'm going the medic route, because a BS in acute care leads fairly nicely into getting the bridge to RN. Yes, RN is more widely respected. But I want to specialize for a reason (flashing lights make me feel happy) and expand from there.

 

[AJ Hidell]

If quitting (I guess that's what you meant by falling on sword) will make no difference, what do you want us to do, continue volunteering but recognize we are selfish, ignorant people who harm society?

Well, it's a realistic start. If people at least honestly recognise and admit the problem, those with a better sense of professional integrity will take it to heart. Every little bit helps. Would I rather every volunteer walk off the job? Sure. No doubt about that. But again, I am neither stupid nor unrealistic.