lights responding vl. / yes or no

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bradnovlesky

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our department doesnt allow us to use personal lights in our cars to respond the station or to the scene! to my knowledge, any car responding to a page for an emergency, being fire or ems, becomes an emergency viechle? any thoughts??
 
Not in my state! No POV ever can display red lights. Only the stupid green ones. I dont even have one. Waste of money!
:wacko:
 
Responding to the station does not make the vehicle an emergency vehicle. Most states have very clear laws defining an emergency vehicle, and what equipment must be present for a vehicle to be considered such.

In addition, your insurance company will have something to say if your POV is considered an emergency vehicle...your premiums will skyrocket if they find out.

Around here, we don't use any types of lights/sirens to get to the station, unless we're in a department vehicle which is an authorized emergency vehicle complete with lights and sirens. None of our members are authorized to respond in a POV with lights.
 
my last department issued us lights & it was up to us if we upgraded. we are the only company out of four within a 100 mile radius that has these regs..
 
so if i get up at 3 in the morning to respond to a page in my car i am considered a good samaratan?
 
I think your department has a good policy. In the past few years every volunteer or paid on call department I have worked for or with has banned the use of personal vehicle lights. Drivers already have enough of a hard time knowing what to do when a fire truck or ambulance is driving with lights and sirens on, what on earth are they going to do for a Subaru with one little blue light on it? The only time I think personal vehicle lights are ok is when the vehicle is parked on scene, and the light is helping mark the scene.
 
cant use blue in our state anyways. only cops have use of blue! red and white we can use in colorado. i dont agree/ we are only requesting the right of way/ anyways
 
so if i get up at 3 in the morning to respond to a page in my car i am considered a good samaratan?

Your considered a volunteer driving safely to the scene/station.

I am not for a blanket policy of banning POV code 3 response, because I cannot possible know everybody's situation. People say code 3 saves little time, but come do a day in my shoes in the city of Los Angeles, where code 3 can make a difference in getting to the scene in minutes or hours. That is not an exaggeration. However, lights and sirens in emergency vehicles with EVOC trained drivers is dangerous enough. Its not worth the risk most of the time.
(A call a few shifts ago was a STAT CCT transfer, response from the San Fernando Valley to West LA. The two methods to get to West LA include the 405 freeway and Sepulveda Blvd. Both were gridlocked with 1 hour plus ETAs, however a safe implementation of lights and sirens got us there in 20 minutes)
 
so if i get up at 3 in the morning to respond to a page in my car i am considered a good samaratan?

That's up to your department and your state labor laws, since you could be covered by Workman's Comp if you were injured in route to the station.

Just because you may be considered on duty doesn't mean that any vehicle you're in is an emergency vehicle. You mentioned that your agency issued you lights, but let's look at what are some generalized requirements for a vehicle to be considered and emergency vehicle.
1) Flashing red light, viewable 360 degrees at least 500 feet away in normal atmospheric conditions
2) A siren capable of emitting an audible signal capable of being heard from 500 feet away under normal atmospheric conditions.

Lights alone don't make the emergency vehicle.
 
our department doesnt allow us to use personal lights in our cars to respond the station or to the scene! to my knowledge, any car responding to a page for an emergency, being fire or ems, becomes an emergency viechle? any thoughts??
Doesn't matter what the law is. If your department says no, then the answer is no. What exactly is your concern here? Why do you feel that the departmental policy is wrong? And if you don't like your department policies, do you really want to stay there? If so, why?

Until a scientifically valid study indicates that they make a difference in patient outcomes, even on the ambulance, it's going to be really hard to justify using them on a POV.
 
lights used in the pov can be a great tool for every responder or we would not have them on the rigs( used with common sense)
 
Okay, I can see where this thread is heading, so I'm only going to say this once.


PLAY NICE

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lights used in the pov can be a great tool for every responder or we would not have them on the rigs
Can you link us to some scientifically verified statistics that verify or support that claim? Something more substantial than, "Its the way we've always done it", preferably.
 
thanks for the info!! i just wanted to see others opinin? it seems to be a go / or no go thing!
 
Doesn't matter what the law is. If your department says no, then the answer is no. What exactly is your concern here? Why do you feel that the departmental policy is wrong? And if you don't like your department policies, do you really want to stay there? If so, why?

Until a scientifically valid study indicates that they make a difference in patient outcomes, even on the ambulance, it's going to be really hard to justify using them on a POV.

I disagree. There have not been enough studies, and the studies are very self limiting in that they cannot describe every system, geographic location, level of care, etc. Most of my experiences with code 3 transports have been very positive where I work. It often shaves 10-30 minutes off the first EKG to cath ballon times. Code 3 transport shaves time off the duration in which donor organs have to be kept outside the body when we transport the donor teams with organs back to the hospital. Code 3 transport has saves lives where I work.

To use the common adage, studies show there is no proven benefit to parachutes in skydiving. Do we still use them? Lights and siren response is accepted and expected by the public, and is an effective system to get to the patient faster. It is also a way to show we feel a sense of urgency responding to a citizen's emergency, and while that may be controversial, I challenge anyone to argue that is innately wrong. Should we cut down on frivolous use? You bet. But I think it has its place.

Code 3 used only in emergency situations, and with drivers current in EVOC and other prudent safety courses along with company policies for stopping at red lights and just using plain old common sense is a solid technique in emergency medical services.
 
To use the common adage, studies show there is no proven benefit to parachutes in skydiving. Do we still use them?
Not sure where you get your information, but that is a very poor analogy. The benefits of parachutes are self-evident without formal study. They were developed through formal study in the first place. And there have been multiple meta-analyses to demonstrate the success rate of parachutes. That success rate proves their benefits. The benefits of code 3 driving are theoretical and speculative. They have not been proven, despite repeated attempts in the U.S. and Canada, to significantly improve outcomes in our patients. In fact, some studies have shown that our patients are better off not even calling us at all. And if you are having an MI, and you are waiting for an EMT-B to show up in his POV with a bag full of 4x4s, then that would be especially applicable.

Lights and siren response is accepted and expected by the public..
So was The Holocaust. The popularity of an idea does not validate it, thus my previous challenge to give us something more than, "This is the way we've always done it".

...and is an effective system to get to the patient faster.
If the patient is the primary concern here, then why are we providing them with nothing more than vollies in POVs? Where are the paramedics? Where is the 24/7 staffed ambulance? Don't tell me they can't have it, because they can if they want it bad enough. And if they don't want it bad enough, then why are we busting our butts in our POVs, risking our lives, our vehicles, our homes, and our families? Why aren't you sleeping at the ambulance station if speed is so important to you?

It is also a way to show we feel a sense of urgency responding to a citizen's emergency, and while that may be controversial, I challenge anyone to argue that is innately wrong.
No problem. Ever worked in dispatch? Half the people who call 911 tell us to please turn off the lights and siren before we get there. That is a clear sign that it is innately wrong. And that sense of urgency we "feel" is a fascade. It adds nothing to patient care. It is what you do after you get to the patient that is going to make a difference.

Should we cut down on frivolous use? You bet. But I think it has its place.
Sure, but that place is not in the POVs of volunteers running to the station.

Code 3 used only in emergency situations, and with drivers current in EVOC and other prudent safety courses along with company policies for stopping at red lights and just using plain old common sense is a solid technique in emergency medical services.
Evidence? What exactly does "solid technique" mean? There are a lot of very educated and experienced professionals in the fields of EMS and law, with a lot of common sense, who would readily disagree with you, and Bradnovlesky's chief is one of them. More and more administrators every day are banning this practice because they do the math and realise that it is a clear liability with no demonstrated value, except for attracting more volunteers. And the trend will continue as more administrators become better educated with the current literature on the matter. And others will ban it too late, after one of their people crashes out in grand fashion, bringing disastrous publicity to the department. It simply is not worth it.

When it comes right down to it, there is very rarely any common sense reason for running code 3. It is done mostly because people get off on doing it, not because it results in any benefit to the patient. I've seen half a volly department quit when their department banned the use of lights and sirens on their POVs. What does that tell you about those people? If they really cared about their patients, why did they quit? Is quitting going to improve their patients' care?

The most immediate and positive step that EMS could take to further the profession would be to simply remove the lights and sirens from every ambulance today. That would weed out the large percentage of people who are only in it for themselves and the cheap thrlls, leaving behind only those who are here because they think that the practice of medicine and helping people is the coolest thing they can think of doing with their lives. When people apply to an organisation of mine, I take a look at their POV while they are there. If it is whackered out, they're not even getting considered, unless their resume and interview also show me a seriously hardcore professional educational commitment to go along with it. If the lights on your POV cost more than the car is worth, and you have spent nothing on education except for a 14 day EMT course, I don't need you, and neither does the community.
 
your personal vehicle is just that, your personal vehicle. It does not become an emergency vehicle just becuase you put a flashing light in it.

In NY it is considered a courtesy light. You are expected to follow all traffic laws.
 
To all that put L&S on your POV talk to your insurance. If you get in a wreck responding or even not responding and during the investigation they find the equipment you will get $0 as they willdeny the claim as it was insured as a POV not an emergency car. If your agent tells you otherwise request that in writing so when it happens you can go back on the agent.
 
There are only extreme areas that it would ever be justifiable. Even in those areas where that it is, doubtful that there would be traffic problems in those areas.

R/r 911
 
There are only extreme areas that it would ever be justifiable. Even in those areas where that it is, doubtful that there would be traffic problems in those areas.

R/r 911

LOL. That is true. I know one town of 1200, where I work one of my EMS jobs, their volly FF's drive accross the town with Lights on their POV's. Yet I can at 20 miles per hour drive to any point in town within 2 minutes. So how much time are they saving? Is the 10 or 15 seconds saved worth the risk of them running over the kids playing in the street? And the one that lives out of town probably will not pass a single car coming to the station.
 
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