lights responding vl. / yes or no

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I'm usually the first person to demand journal articles to back up a claim. That being said, I can respect daedalus' point about many of these studies being urban. It makes sense (please note the careful choice of words) that for long rural transports, the use of lights and sirens could decrease time to definitive care. For example, a transport distance of 40 km on roadways with a speed limit of 80 km/h would take 30 minutes. If we increase our speed to 120 km/h we would reduce transport time to 20 minutes.

Yes, it makes sense, but so do many things that end up being wrong or only partly true. The bottom line is that I agree with AJ. There still has yet to be a valid scientific study showing that the use of lights and sirens improves patient outcomes.
 
In Mississippi vollys are allowed to use POV lights but, legally, they're only a courtesy light. LEOs use blue and fire and EMS use red or red and white. For the most part, though (and especially in small towns) people around here will yield to a POV with a light. Otherwise the volly is expected to observe all traffic laws and signs.

The department I'm joining does allow POV lights but not many members use them. The department has very strict rules on their use and how people drive in their POVs to calls. Speeding is a huge no-no.

To me there's really not much use in it seeing as how this is such a small town. However, I could see situations where they may be warranted. But, in the case of this town, those situations would be rare.
 
I'm usually the first person to demand journal articles to back up a claim. That being said, I can respect daedalus' point about many of these studies being urban. It makes sense (please note the careful choice of words) that for long rural transports, the use of lights and sirens could decrease time to definitive care. For example, a transport distance of 40 km on roadways with a speed limit of 80 km/h would take 30 minutes. If we increase our speed to 120 km/h we would reduce transport time to 20 minutes.

Yes, it makes sense, but so do many things that end up being wrong or only partly true. The bottom line is that I agree with AJ. There still has yet to be a valid scientific study showing that the use of lights and sirens improves patient outcomes.

Yes it may save time on a long transport but at higher speeds vibration etc worsens and makes it harder if not impossible to do proper patient care. So are we doing the patient anything of benefit?

Some argue that the lights will chase animals out the road yet you could also argue that the lights will make those not in the road panic and run in front of the ambulance. As to other cars just pass as you would any other car when it is safe. The lights and sirens might cause the other cars to pull off the road to fast and crash.

The greater good may not be being acomplished by rushing around. Again I think in stand still traffic to be able to make progress might be the only time L&S would be warranted.
 
LEOs use blue and fire and EMS use red or red and white.

This irritates me to no end. For people with color blindness red is the most common color they aren't able to see, and the while lights aren't super visible during the day when it's sunny. I think all emergency vehicles should have all 3 colors.
 
So was The Holocaust.
Godwin's. Opponent wins. /thread

More importantly, search! There have been a number of "lights on POVs" threads, and these arguments seem strangely familiar. Except for the one about the Holocaust. That's new and... different.

To use the common adage, studies show there is no proven benefit to parachutes in skydiving. Do we still use them?

That paper was criticizing excessive reliance on meta-analyses and a naive approach to EBM, not all research. "Common sense" doesn't cut it. It's been a while since I read up on the effectiveness of Code 3 transport, but you're right in that the previous studies had some design flaws. However, this thread's about lights on POVs. I'm not sure if anyone's studied that.
 
However, this thread's about lights on POVs. I'm not sure if anyone's studied that.


Why study it? It such a small percentage of people that do it and it quickly is becoming smaller as more and more volunteer agencys go paid and have professionals stationed at the station. Use the research funds if any are available to actually focus on something that is actually done by more or that is being pushed as the future of EMS.
 
Why study it? It such a small percentage of people that do it and it quickly is becoming smaller as more and more volunteer agencys go paid and have professionals stationed at the station. Use the research funds if any are available to actually focus on something that is actually done by more or that is being pushed as the future of EMS.


I Conspiracy's meaning, "I'm not sure anyone's studied that", was a reference that this thread is off track and should be about lights on POV's.
 
Simple solution. Make them complete a EVOC course and be self insured for at least one million dollars for vehicle and collision.

There are only a few areas that volunteers should have the ability to respond w/lights and those areas usually do not have traffic congestion and no need of emergency lights.

R/r 911
 
I would not say hijacked just it served its purpose and now has developed into a healthy discussion of the concerns and issues some have. Forums progress in ways we may never expect.
 
Not sure where you get your information, but that is a very poor analogy. The benefits of parachutes are self-evident without formal study. They were developed through formal study in the first place. And there have been multiple meta-analyses to demonstrate the success rate of parachutes. That success rate proves their benefits. The benefits of code 3 driving are theoretical and speculative. They have not been proven, despite repeated attempts in the U.S. and Canada, to significantly improve outcomes in our patients. In fact, some studies have shown that our patients are better off not even calling us at all. And if you are having an MI, and you are waiting for an EMT-B to show up in his POV with a bag full of 4x4s, then that would be especially applicable.


So was The Holocaust. The popularity of an idea does not validate it, thus my previous challenge to give us something more than, "This is the way we've always done it".


If the patient is the primary concern here, then why are we providing them with nothing more than vollies in POVs? Where are the paramedics? Where is the 24/7 staffed ambulance? Don't tell me they can't have it, because they can if they want it bad enough. And if they don't want it bad enough, then why are we busting our butts in our POVs, risking our lives, our vehicles, our homes, and our families? Why aren't you sleeping at the ambulance station if speed is so important to you?


No problem. Ever worked in dispatch? Half the people who call 911 tell us to please turn off the lights and siren before we get there. That is a clear sign that it is innately wrong. And that sense of urgency we "feel" is a fascade. It adds nothing to patient care. It is what you do after you get to the patient that is going to make a difference.


Sure, but that place is not in the POVs of volunteers running to the station.


Evidence? What exactly does "solid technique" mean? There are a lot of very educated and experienced professionals in the fields of EMS and law, with a lot of common sense, who would readily disagree with you, and Bradnovlesky's chief is one of them. More and more administrators every day are banning this practice because they do the math and realise that it is a clear liability with no demonstrated value, except for attracting more volunteers. And the trend will continue as more administrators become better educated with the current literature on the matter. And others will ban it too late, after one of their people crashes out in grand fashion, bringing disastrous publicity to the department. It simply is not worth it.

When it comes right down to it, there is very rarely any common sense reason for running code 3. It is done mostly because people get off on doing it, not because it results in any benefit to the patient. I've seen half a volly department quit when their department banned the use of lights and sirens on their POVs. What does that tell you about those people? If they really cared about their patients, why did they quit? Is quitting going to improve their patients' care?

The most immediate and positive step that EMS could take to further the profession would be to simply remove the lights and sirens from every ambulance today. That would weed out the large percentage of people who are only in it for themselves and the cheap thrlls, leaving behind only those who are here because they think that the practice of medicine and helping people is the coolest thing they can think of doing with their lives. When people apply to an organisation of mine, I take a look at their POV while they are there. If it is whackered out, they're not even getting considered, unless their resume and interview also show me a seriously hardcore professional educational commitment to go along with it. If the lights on your POV cost more than the car is worth, and you have spent nothing on education except for a 14 day EMT course, I don't need you, and neither does the community.
Yes, I know. I agree with most of what you say. In California, we do not use POV lights or sirens. It is against the Law. Whackers hurt our profession. A bag of 4x4s and a 110 hour course is not medicine. I am far from the person needing that lecture.

What I am saying is that we cannot decide what is best for everyone. In most cases on my CCT truck, the patient would die if they did not call us. Its anecdotal, but its true.

Oh and by the way, most people in Los Angeles are angry with our response times, they want them to be faster. I have had many people very angry with me for not using lights and sirens, but never anyone angry with me for using them. If people are calling your 911 dispatch center and asking the dispatcher to turn off the lights and siren response, than they truly are not having an emergency if they have the time to think about saving face with their neighbors.
 
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Godwin's Law was invoked a while ago - and this thread isn't improving.

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