Ky. EMS team under fire for treating man with antivenom

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
Messages
6,352
Reaction score
2,209
Points
113
Way more interesting than *that* the KBEMS is doing what they're doing is *how* they came to the decision to discipline the responders. The story leaves a lot of information out, not the least of which is the high rate of anaphylaxis with snake anti-venom.

Paralysis can be dealt with by using an ambu bag and some sedation at the very least, let alone just intubating the guy. Severe systemic anaphylaxis on top of the neurotoxicity, not so much.
 
Barnes said they were unable to reach their EMS director, but they did speak with medical staff at Clark Regional Medical Center.

Makes me wonder who they actually spoke too, and what was actually said.
 
Makes me wonder who they actually spoke too, and what was actually said.
If it’s not documented in the PCR, shame on them.

We are in a big offline protocol region, online medical control is almost never consulted… but when it is, you get that providers name and put it right in the PCR narrative, end of discussion.

If it’s in there then this seems like an easy open and shut case..
 
I get my orders on a recorded line. Didn't call in on that line? Doc-y no talk-y. Call back on the right number.
 
Can KY EMTs give IV/IM meds?
Unknown, but one of them was a paramedic so I'm guessing he can give them within protocols or medical direction
 
That’s better. Thanks.
I cam across a story that they called their medical director who is authorized to give online medical control. They weren't able to get ahold of them so they called a doctor, at what im guessing was a hospital, who said do it. And apparently one of thr paramedics is a former chief and experienced paramedic.

Who knows. Will be interesting to see what happens if its published.
 
So they gave a drug that was 1) clearly indicated, 2) within the paramedic scope of practice, 3) which a physician authorized, and 4) produced the desired outcome, quite possibly saving a life.

And for that they are being threatened with having their credentials revoked?

There's got to be more to the story.
 
So they gave a drug that was 1) clearly indicated, 2) within the paramedic scope of practice, 3) which a physician authorized, and 4) produced the desired outcome, quite possibly saving a life.

And for that they are being threatened with having their credentials revoked?

There's got to be more to the story.
It’s not always that straightforward when it comes to state regulations. While I have no experience with KY, it can come down to issues with #2 and #3.

#2: from everything I have seen before it is only allowed in the wilderness paramedic scope and not the general paramedic scope. The medic was not acting as or employed as a wilderness paramedic so it would have been out of scope.

#3: in their system, is a hospital physician able to give them orders? For example in the ground system where I work a base hospital physician can only give a very limited number of orders and those orders are specifically listed in the protocol. If they order something that is not in the protocols then the paramedic is not able to complete that order. About a year ago we had a base hospital physician give an order for a paramedic to do a double sequential defib on a patient. Since that is not specifically listed in the protocols, the MICN, paramedic, and physician all received write ups and had to undergo remedial training.
 
I get how these things generally work, I just think it's absurd, at least as described in the linked article.

The article says that "wilderness paramedics" can administer it, so it exists in the paramedic scope for the state, a "wilderness paramedic" just being a regular paramedic with a handful of hours of extra training. It's not like you had an EMT doing RSI or something else that is solidly outside the scope of their training and certification. Paramedics give emergency drugs and antivenom is an emergency drug. So I don't see it really as a scope of practice thing, at least not of the type that should put someone's licensure in jeopardy.

The medical control part doesn't make sense to me either. They tried to contact who they were (presumably) supposed to contact for orders, and with that person being unavailable, contacted who was (presumably) the next most reasonable physician to seek advice and authorization from. Many places have standing orders to do what normally requires OLMC in the event that you legitimately can't make contact with OLMC. If I were to speculate, I would guess that this is what got them - perhaps they didn't actually follow proper procedure for contacting OLMC and are being accused of "medical control shopping" for the orders they wanted? Maybe that's where the "more to the story" lies. Who knows.

Those issues aside, what they did was reasonable and medically appropriate and resulted in a positive outcome. It's difficult to believe that anyone really thinks the patient would have been better off had they not given the stuff.

This is why the heavily protocol-driven mindset needs to die in favor of a clinical decision making approach, and this is yet another example of EMS eating itself. In a true emergency out in the real world, things occasionally just need to be done whether they are explicitly authorized or not.
 
I get how these things generally work, I just think it's absurd, at least as described in the linked article.

The article says that "wilderness paramedics" can administer it, so it exists in the paramedic scope for the state, a "wilderness paramedic" just being a regular paramedic with a handful of hours of extra training. It's not like you had an EMT doing RSI or something else that is solidly outside the scope of their training and certification. Paramedics give emergency drugs and antivenom is an emergency drug. So I don't see it really as a scope of practice thing, at least not of the type that should put someone's licensure in jeopardy.

The medical control part doesn't make sense to me either. They tried to contact who they were (presumably) supposed to contact for orders, and with that person being unavailable, contacted who was (presumably) the next most reasonable physician to seek advice and authorization from. Many places have standing orders to do what normally requires OLMC in the event that you legitimately can't make contact with OLMC. If I were to speculate, I would guess that this is what got them - perhaps they didn't actually follow proper procedure for contacting OLMC and are being accused of "medical control shopping" for the orders they wanted? Maybe that's where the "more to the story" lies. Who knows.

Those issues aside, what they did was reasonable and medically appropriate and resulted in a positive outcome. It's difficult to believe that anyone really thinks the patient would have been better off had they not given the stuff.

This is why the heavily protocol-driven mindset needs to die in favor of a clinical decision making approach, and this is yet another example of EMS eating itself. In a true emergency out in the real world, things occasionally just need to be done whether they are explicitly authorized or not.
Titles do very much matter in the realm of EMS. For example as a paramedic, I am not legally allowed to intubate a pediatric patient in my state or county. However once I clock in as a flight paramedic, which is just a paramedic with more education, I can now intubate a pediatric patient and it is approved by the state and county. So in this case pediatric intubate is listed as a paramedic skill however it is only authorized for flight medics.
 
Why wasn’t there a ZOO staffer to just give the med..? Seems Herpatology is way behind the curve.
 
Glad it was dismissed.

We have issues at both my jobs, calling OLMC isn't always an option, 50% (sometimes more) of our coverage area isn't covered by cell phone or radios. So calling OLMC for things can be tough; basically we get told by the company (and state) to do what needs to be done and document the hell out of why we did it.
 
The article says that "wilderness paramedics" can administer it, so it exists in the paramedic scope for the state, a "wilderness paramedic" just being a regular paramedic with a handful of hours of extra training. It's not like you had an EMT doing RSI or something else that is solidly outside the scope of their training and certification. Paramedics give emergency drugs and antivenom is an emergency drug. So I don't see it really as a scope of practice thing, at least not of the type that should put someone's licensure in jeopardy.
Paramedic vs advance practice paramedic... most RNs can't intubate, but an MICN (nurse on an ambulance) can. Those extra hours do make the difference between what you can do and what you can't. Kind of like how some cops are authorized to perform a PITT maneuver on a high speed chase, while others aren't.

The medical control part doesn't make sense to me either. They tried to contact who they were (presumably) supposed to contact for orders, and with that person being unavailable, contacted who was (presumably) the next most reasonable physician to seek advice and authorization from. Many places have standing orders to do what normally requires OLMC in the event that you legitimately can't make contact with OLMC. If I were to speculate, I would guess that this is what got them - perhaps they didn't actually follow proper procedure for contacting OLMC and are being accused of "medical control shopping" for the orders they wanted? Maybe that's where the "more to the story" lies. Who knows.
I don't get this... do all paramedics not have "radio failure" protocols? IE, if you can't reach the doc, and you need to treat the patient, you can do XYZ? You might get called in front of a review board to make sure you acted appropriately, but it's not like it's a punitive investigation. This sounds like a good case for radio failure, where you have actions that need to happen yesterday or else the patient is going to die...
Those issues aside, what they did was reasonable and medically appropriate and resulted in a positive outcome. It's difficult to believe that anyone really thinks the patient would have been better off had they not given the stuff.
No one thinks that, but the ends do not always justify the means...

For example as a paramedic, I am not legally allowed to intubate a pediatric patient in my state or county. However once I clock in as a flight paramedic, which is just a paramedic with more education, I can now intubate a pediatric patient and it is approved by the state and county. So in this case pediatric intubate is listed as a paramedic skill however it is only authorized for flight medics.
Wow... a fully credentialed paramedic who can't intubate a pediatric patient... I hope you never have to deal with a pediatric burn patient, esp one who has been pulled out of a house fire... and that's not a dig at you, it's just the systems you are working in.
 
Case dismissed against Ky. EMS team that gave antivenom https://share.google/mDaf4RCStckBfvPvk
Got dismissed 'cause things worked out. Very easily could have gone the other way in a patient that very well may have done OK with supportive care in the field. If it merited dismissal with the patient surviving, it should have merited dismissal it if they killed the patient DRT, and we all know that would not have happened.
 
Back
Top