Junior Corps Training

[usafmedic45]

American 16 year olds and Israeli 16 year olds are two completely different sets of 16 year olds. Different exposure levels, probably different maturity levels as well.

+1.

I know adults who couldn't deal with a fraction of what my juniors have seen.

The thing is being able to "deal" with something and not having negative repercutions from seeing crap you shouldn't see at any age before your brain has fully matured are two separate issues, whether you yourself are mature enough to see it or not.

However doesn't really apply.

Care to explain how? It applies because you're assuming because of your personal experience, it is a great thing and may have worked fine for you. There's a lot of evidence to say you're wrong and that people as a group lack the maturity and other characteristics to cope with repeated negative influences at such young ages. The fact that you're ignoring that evidence and only applying your experience (which supports your prejudice) is, by definition, a confirmation bias.

"In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors. Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study."

So apparently either you can't comprehend what you read or apply even basic linear thought patterns using what you've read or both. Therefore, let me put it into a format you might understand, a protocol:

1. You have an idea or belief.
2. You want to prove the belief to be correct to others, such as on an internet forum.
3. You have no or insufficient evidence to back up your stance
4. Ignore data to the contrary or simply do not bother to look
5. Fill your argument with:
a. skewed data
b. related personal anecdotes that do not meet the burden of proof
c. irrelevant personal stories to distract the persons reading the story from the fact
you are not actually proving your point and are probably making yourself look
foolish. This is called a strawman argument.
6. When in doubt, pull the race, age or sexual discrimination card.
7. After consulting with the moderators (unless you'd prefer to discover the EMTLife
post-posting audit and review process), insulting the person who calls you on your
ignorance is also an option.

These kids are being active in their community.

That's a good thing, but there are more appropriate ways to be doing that.

but the pros outnumber it.

In your opinion, but not those of most with vastly more experience, education, knowledge and- most importantly- credible evidence to back up your opinion.

Back when we were 18 we had a junior on our crew who was 15 at the time and we had a code. We brought the guy back as a team with a lot of help from the 15 y/o, who is now an officer in our junior corps.

N=1 and what is your point? Look up and see why a single data point in isolation generally means nothing.

My partner and I are both 19 y/o EMTs right now. Recently we assisted in a childbirth.

OK...I delivered my first baby (without any assistance) as a volunteer EMT when I was 18 and a senior in high school. What's your point? You were both legally credentialled as EMTs and it has nothing to do with "juniors". I know, being young and niave, it's hard to stay focused and know what does and does not belong in a professional debate but let me give you a hint: that little anecdote you shared does not.

When I just turned 15 and was riding we had the most horrific DOA I have ever had.

The only possible bad thing that I have encountered is having a rough call

Again and again....personal experience. Good rule of thumb when dealing with professional debate: "Bring evidence, or be prepared to lose the argument".

It all depends on how you personally can tolerate it and how you cope.

Right and legally, they don't need to be test subjects for an experiment on it.

which we have stress debriefings for,

Which have been proven to do more harm than good...hmm, sounds like the adults in charge of you and your juniors are not anywhere close to up to speed on anything- legally, ethically, professionally. I feel sorry for anyone getting their start in a professional organization by experiencing the loose conglomeration of bad ideas that you outline as the practices of your corps. I close with a hope that you are simply doing a poor job of outlining the true nature of your service.

 

[mongio323]

Well clearly your bias is that you couldn't deal with the experiences as a young adult....I have my opinion and you have yours...

And maybe my opinion supports why NY EMTs are damn good at what they do...cause many of them start young!

 

[mongio323]

OK...I delivered my first baby (without any assistance) as a volunteer EMT when I was 18 and a senior in high school. What's your point? You were both legally credentialled as EMTs and it has nothing to do with "juniors". I know, being young and niave, it's hard to stay focused and know what does and does not belong in a professional debate but let me give you a hint: that little anecdote you shared does not.

And by the way unless you physically gave birth to the child, then you merely assisted...Moms really the one doing the delivering..hence "ASSISTED"

 

[JPINFV]

Well clearly your bias is that you couldn't deal with the experiences as a young adult....I have my opinion and you have yours...

And maybe my opinion supports why NY EMTs are damn good at what they do...cause many of them start young!

 

[usafmedic45]

Well clearly your bias is that you couldn't deal with the experiences as a young adult....I have my opinion and you have yours...

And maybe my opinion supports why NY EMTs are damn good at what they do...cause many of them start young!

I refuse to dignify your ignorance and ego with any further commentary since your mind is closed and you are unwilling to question your beliefs. Welcome to EMTLife, may your stay here be long and educational for you.

 

[usafmedic45]

Amen JPINFV.

 

[Trayos]

I would have to respectfully disagree on the topic of junior volunteer EMS personnel. This is not because of my intent to volunteer, but rather my own experiences with junior FF/EMT volunteers in my area. I realize that there is a maturity gap between a 16 year old and a 20 something year old, and that EMS personnel will be subjected to traumatic situations, beyond what should be expected of them in day-to-day life. However, I feel that it is damaging to assume that all kids under the age of 18 have little to no work ethic/the capacity to learn and assist others in emergency situations. Many of the volunteer EMS/FF personnel in my school are exemplary students, which has quite apparently carried over into their volunteer activities. Due to the fact that EMS is such a demanding field (physically and mentally), it would be very strange for a slacker in school/life to work up the resolve to attend 16 weeks of rigorous classes while maintaing more then an 80% average, in addition to all the regular stressors of highschool life.
To draw a comparison (which is not applicable to all paid EMS by any means) just last week I heard two EMT-I's from a paid company, in their mid-20's, remark about how "I don't need a college education to stick a needle in your arm."
My state and city are not the exception to the rule, as seen by the actions of volunteers in Darian, CT, several states away.

http://www.post53.org/index.html

Thank you for listening.

 

[fortsmithman]

My service did have a 15 yr old member He did not go out on calls all he did was assist with training. Nothing wrong with a youth member provided all they do is train. So that when they do turn 18 and do take regular EMS training and become Emergency Medical Responder's, Emergency Medical Technicians, then finally Emergency Medical Technologist Paramedic (in Alberta it's technologist and not technician).

 

[busmonkey]

Well, in the British Columbia Ambulance service, junior members are generally not allowed, people 16 and over, w/ Occupational First Aid Level 3, or equivalent may ride along and assist with retrieving gear for the EMT in the back. This is referred to as riding 3rd because there are always 2 Primary Care Paramedics or occasionally one Primary Care Paramedic and one EMR + the 3rd rider. I don't mind it whatsoever. I have worked with youth and I quite enjoy the system. They learn how the bus works and learn where everything is so that when they come out of highschool they are able to join the service and already have a leg up. The EMR course which you are allowed to take at 16 often requires it as part of graduating. They didn't however, allow it when the strike was on. Part of working to rule, etc.

 

[usafmedic45]

I realize that there is a maturity gap between a 16 year old and a 20 something year old,

I would argue the gap between a 20 year old and a 27 to 28 year old is far wider.

However, I feel that it is damaging to assume that all kids under the age of 18 have little to no work ethic/the capacity to learn and assist others in emergency situations.

I don't believe anyone is seriouly arguing that. Actually, most of us are saying that the kids who want to be in EMS tend to be a little too eager to help.

it would be very strange for a slacker in school/life to work up the resolve to attend 16 weeks of rigorous classes while maintaing more then an 80% average, in addition to all the regular stressors of highschool life.

As I've said before on other threads, EMT training is not rigorous by any means for anyone above the level of a high-functioning Downs case. It's the human equivalent of dog obedience training: jump through a few hoops, speak at the appropriate times, etc and you eventually get a reward.

 

[Trayos]

Actually, most of us are saying that the kids who want to be in EMS tend to be a little too eager to help.

Admittedly, yes. However, would it not be of use to have eager well-trained members, who would both be of use in more situations, as well as being testing platforms for new procedures/technology within their skill range? If, however, they are eager and incompletely trained, they may try and act out of their skill set in order to gain more respect/feel like a part of the team, etc. This would obviously be inappropriate, and cause many problems. Would it be wrong to train the junior members to a more advanced level, but only give them clearance to apply the techniques if the situation called for it and a senior EMT requested it? How many times would you have liked for another hand to assist in transporting the patient, or gather information from observers on the situation, giving you more space to perform your own duties?

As I've said before on other threads, EMT training is not rigorous by any means for anyone above the level of a high-functioning Downs case. It's the human equivalent of dog obedience training: jump through a few hoops, speak at the appropriate times, etc and you eventually get a reward.

In addition to the actual training, which is not exactly a walk in the park to people starting out (as evidenced by accounts here), the actual rendering of care can be difficult physically and mentally. It would not help to stand and watch, knowing that you are just so much dead weight.
Also, due to your advanced training/experience (Flight RT, EMS instructor, etc.) it would be natural to assume that an EMT-B course would look/feel incredibly easy to you. It would probably be much more difficult for somebody just starting out who would might have little more than a cursory knowledge of emergency medicine. When you took them originally, how did you feel about your EMS classes?

 

[JPINFV]

I realize that there is a maturity gap between a 16 year old and a 20 something year old, and that EMS personnel will be subjected to traumatic situations, beyond what should be expected of them in day-to-day life. However, I feel that it is damaging to assume that all kids under the age of 18 have little to no work ethic/the capacity to learn and assist others in emergency situations.

To be fair, I assume that most 20 year olds have a lax work ethic and no real want or capacity to actually learn more than the bare minimum their required to. Heck look at the number of threads on any EMS board that could be answered by simply looking at their local state EMS office/authority website or a Google search. The line, though, has to be drawn someplace, though, and for a variety of reasons that line is drawn at 18.

Due to the fact that EMS is such a demanding field (physically and mentally), it would be very strange for a slacker in school/life to work up the resolve to attend 16 weeks of rigorous classes while maintaing more then an 80% average, in addition to all the regular stressors of highschool life.

If EMT-B training was 16 weeks of full time course work, then I'd agree. However, at 16 weeks, you're looking, at most, 10 hours a week? Granted, when I did my undergrad, 12 quarter-units (my undergrad was on the quarter system), was only 12 hours of lecture a week (3 hours per 4 unit course), however most people I knew generally held around 16 units. Additionally, there was much more information in a week of one class (3 hours of lecture), than the entire 4-5+ hours per week of EMT-B training. Additionally, I'm never impressed when people talk about maintaining X-% average. A good instructor can make an exam that will normally hit just about any average he wants based off of the material the questions cover and how the questions and answer choices are written. Two different exams on the same material can have an average of 90% or 70% depending only on the questions.

 

[busmonkey]

Additionally, I'm never impressed when people talk about maintaining X-% average. A good instructor can make an exam that will normally hit just about any average he wants based off of the material the questions cover and how the questions and answer choices are written. Two different exams on the same material can have an average of 90% or 70% depending only on the questions.

I don't necesarrily agree with you there. Someone who puts themselves all into a test, can do just as well on that hard test. A lot of it is effort and prep!

 

[usafmedic45]

Also, due to your advanced training/experience (Flight RT, EMS instructor, etc.) it would be natural to assume that an EMT-B course would look/feel incredibly easy to you.

I was speaking based on my experience as someone who did their EMT-B course as a 16 year old.

When you took them originally, how did you feel about your EMS classes?

My thought was "Dear God, they have really let us take care of people with this little education?". Seriously, it's pretty bad when a 16 year old can realize there is a major deficiency.

In addition to the actual training, which is not exactly a walk in the park to people starting out (as evidenced by accounts here),

I would not exactly say the majority of people posting on that thread saying most people in their class passed being a valid indicator that it is rigorous.

However, would it not be of use to have eager well-trained members, who would both be of use in more situations, as well as being testing platforms for new procedures/technology within their skill range?

No, it would be a bad idea. No other professional career field allows children- which the junior personnel you are talking about are, like it or not- to practice, let alone be "testing platforms".

 

[Trayos]

I was speaking based on my experience as someone who did their EMT-B course as a 16 year old.

I would not exactly say the majority of people posting on that thread saying most people in their class passed being a valid indicator that it is rigorous.

No, it would be a bad idea. No other professional career field allows children- which the junior personnel you are talking about are, like it or not- to practice, let alone be "testing platforms".

Three excellent points, thank you very much! I am glad to be able to receive the educated opinion of a senior member, otherwise I would have kept on trucking down a dead-end path.

 

[JPINFV]

I don't necesarrily agree with you there. Someone who puts themselves all into a test, can do just as well on that hard test. A lot of it is effort and prep!

I'm not denying that a lot of it is studying, but not, by any means, are all tests the same, especially when you get into second degree questions.

Edit to add: For programs where the pass/fail cutoff is at 80%, do you not think that they give exams where the average grade will reasonable be expected to be above 80%?

 

[busmonkey]

I'm not denying that a lot of it is studying, but not, by any means, are all tests the same, especially when you get into second degree questions.

Agreed. I understand better now, thank you for clarifying.