Intubation and Spontaneous Respirations

Maybe on an in-betweener, but some people just need intubated..

Thats a big negative ghost rider, at least in the prehospital realm...some people just need a definitive airway. I would argue that surgical cric would likely have a much higher percentage of success in as short a time with no aspiration as RSI does today in the prehospital realm. King airways could very likely be used for short transport times with 0 negative outcomes on at least half if not the majority of RSI patients as well.

I like tubes, they are secure if placed properly, they reduce the risk of aspiration after being placed especially after I suction the stomach, and they are what the patient needs in long term care. However from a standpoint of changing outcomes in EMS I'm not altogether convinced they have a net positive outcome.
 
The only thing that skews the numbers is the fact that there are bad medics who can't see or admit that they are bad and are butchering airways without being called on it.

Some people need definitive airways and the ETT is the gold standard for a definitive airway. I am always going to give at least one attempt for an ETT before going for a king, and I'm damn sure not going to cut someone unless I have absolutely no other choice.
 
The only thing that skews the numbers is the fact that there are bad medics who can't see or admit that they are bad and are butchering airways without being called on it.

Some people need definitive airways and the ETT is the gold standard for a definitive airway. I am always going to give at least one attempt for an ETT before going for a king, and I'm damn sure not going to cut someone unless I have absolutely no other choice.


It doesn't skew the numbers, its not like only 5% of medics are bad at intubating, I would venture 50%+ miss their 1st attempt at a tube at least 35% of the time. Im completely making those numbers up but I would bet I'm not wrong. Also their are progressive physicians at very good research hospitals who now state the gold standard for cardiac arrest is a king unless ROSC is reached...period.

My points about crics is I bet you could spend an hour with bad medics working on RSI, and an hour with medics working on crics, and they would successfully put crics in 95%+ of the time and still have terrible problems with RSI. IMO Cric is a vastly underused airway, with much less time required training to maintain an acceptable level of proficiency when compared to RSI.


ETT is absolutely the gold standard for definitive airway management, I'm just not sure it is the optimal airway for patient outcomes and prehospital use currently. I hate to say it but patient interests dictate that as long as we do more harm with an intervention then good than lowering the interventions to the lowest common denominator where good outcomes are optimized is the most effective way to go. I'm not saying you can't intubate well, I'm saying across the board research would dictate that if we took intubation away entirely and just used kings and LMA's it is very likely that overall patient outcomes would improve or at least not change a bit.
 
The only thing that skews the numbers is the fact that there are bad medics who can't see or admit that they are bad and are butchering airways without being called on it.



Some people need definitive airways and the ETT is the gold standard for a definitive airway. I am always going to give at least one attempt for an ETT before going for a king, and I'm damn sure not going to cut someone unless I have absolutely no other choice.


For someone who's bemoaning the ego of unskilled intubators, I sense a little pot/kettle syndrome here.

Being a skilled intubator is NOT the skill of putting the tube in the trachea, it's the ability to know when a tube is NOT the right choice and being able to quickly move to an SGA or a surgical airway. In my world, with a highly unfavorable LEMON score, chances are the patient might not even get a blade in his mouth, and certainly wouldn't be a candidate for RSI.
 
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Why is taking away someones airway who is breathing doing it properly. We have hashed the RSI/No RSI thing over and over in several other threads. If the patient has no gag reflex, and just needs some comfort and a bit of assistance to maintain a tube and will still maintain some of his own breathing I am all for that. My main concern with this patient would be proper sedation, nothing more, and by proper sedation I mean the absolute minimal to keep the patient comfortable and keep my tube safe.

While I understand your thought process here, I have to disagree with it. Just because a patient is maintaining their own airway at present does not make it safer OR ideal. In fact, I would argue that anyone with significant potential for airway compromise is not ideal when maintaining their own airway. Waiting until they no longer maintain it puts you behind the curve in treatment and leaves you playing catch-up.

Now, I'm not saying that you need to go around dropping tubes in everyone that might need one eventually. Far from it. But I do feel that if everything points to the tube being the probable end result, it should be done completely and thoroughly. And if you're going to drop the tube, put them to sleep and paralyze them. It's safer for them and decreases the possible of them waking up, dislodging the tube, and therefore compromising the "secure" airway you just limited them to.

Just my $.02 though.
 
For someone who's bemoaning the ego of unskilled intubators, I sense a little pot/kettle syndrome here.

Being a skilled intubator is NOT the skill of putting the tube in the trachea, it's the ability to know when a tube is NOT the right choice and being able to quickly move to an SGA or a surgical airway. In my world, with a highly unfavorable LEMON score, chances are the patient might not even get a blade in his mouth, and certainly wouldn't be a candidate for RSI.

No ego intended, but it needs to be pointed out that there ARE bad paramedics out there who lack skills and are included in studies that show low success rates and used as evidence that prehospital intubation is a bad idea. The the fact of the matter is that most of the time, intubation itself really isn't that difficult. I would definitely agree with you that the decision to intubate can be difficult, but that's another topic.

On a personal note, I feel the reason our overall percentages are so low can be attributed to paramedic mills nationwide that each crank out hundreds of paramedics annually with no standardized method to ensure that students even had a solid grasp on this relatively simple skill.

For full disclosure, when I went to medic school 15 years ago, we had a requirement that we have 50 successful intubations but they could all be on the mannequin and we did not get OR time. I had 1 unsuccessful human attempt which taught me more than the 50 successful mannequin attempts, but only the 50 successful attempts counted. From there, I was fortunate to be mentored by some truly remarkable providers throughout the years who have each played a part in developing my skills, knowledge, and abilities.

Full disclosure #2 - I'm pretty lucky to have access to all the toys I need. We have intubrite laryngoscopes, an endless supply of adult and pediatric bougies, king visions, king airways, and scalpels.

Lastly, I find the focus on first attempt success rate to be inappropriate. First, I think it puts undue pressure on that first tube, but most importantly there are just times when you get in there and it's not what you expected. I think a more comprehensive view of airway skills should include decision making process, anxiety levels during the intubation, how long each attempt takes, what are you doing in between attempts, and whether there is a progression of tools between attempts or are you simply trying the same thing over and over.



***please note, I don't think someone is a bad medic if they struggle with intubation***
 
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No ego intended, but it needs to be pointed out that there ARE bad paramedics out there who lack skills and are included in studies that show low success rates and used as evidence that prehospital intubation is a bad idea. The the fact of the matter is that most of the time, intubation itself really isn't that difficult. I would definitely agree with you that the decision to intubate can be difficult, but that's another topic.

On a personal note, I feel the reason our overall percentages are so low can be attributed to paramedic mills nationwide that crank out hundreds of paramedics annually with no standardized method to ensure that students even had a solid grasp on this relatively simple skill.

For full disclosure, when I went to medic school 15 years ago, we had a requirement that we have 50 successful intubations but they could all be on the mannequin and we did not get OR time. I had 1 unsuccessful human attempt which taught me more than the 50 successful mannequin attempts, but only the 50 successful attempts counted. From there, I was fortunate to be mentored by some truly remarkable providers throughout the years who have each played a part in developing my skills, knowledge, and abilities.

Full disclosure #2 - I'm pretty lucky to have access to all the toys I need. We have intubrite laryngoscopes, an endless supply of adult and pediatric bougies, king visions, king airways, and scalpels.

Lastly, I find the focus on first attempt success rate to be inappropriate. First, I think it puts undue pressure on that first tube, but most importantly there are just times when you get in there and it's not what you expected. I think a more comprehensive view of airway skills should include decision making process, anxiety levels during the intubation, how long each attempt takes, what are you doing in between attempts, and whether there is a progression of tools between attempts or are you simply trying the same thing over and over.



***please note, I don't think someone is a bad medic if they struggle with intubation***



I agree with a lot of your thought process on this, and previous posts. If your first DL look is not what was anticipated, is not a lengthy look, AND YOU KNOW HOW to take the corrective actions to make your second attempt successful then I think that's completely acceptable. That being said, screwing around in there for 30 seconds, patient's Spo2 is 90%, and "thinking" you can get it on the second attempt is not the situation I think is acceptable or support.

At the end of the day, we all have different protocols, tools, training, resources, and opinions. I would argue a lot of the trauma scene flights I do might have something going on under the Obstruction tab of LEMONS, but that doesn't mean if they need an airway intubation is off the table. There will never be a one size fits all approach to airway management obviously.

I also agree that providers MUST be able to give an adequate, honest, humble assessment of their knowledge, skills, and experience level when evaluating patients for airway management. Especially when a difficult airway is encountered. I am lucky enough to work for an extremely robust program that provides us with constant training, quarterly O.R. time for intubations on top of field tubes, and video laryngoscopy.
 
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Being a skilled intubator is NOT the skill of putting the tube in the trachea, it's the ability to know when a tube is NOT the right choice and being able to quickly move to an SGA or a surgical airway. In my world, with a highly unfavorable LEMON score, chances are the patient might not even get a blade in his mouth, and certainly wouldn't be a candidate for RSI.

This is probably the most reasonable and mature thing I've ever seen written on an EMS forum about airway management. If more paramedics thought this way, we would not have the problems we have with airway management.

Some people need definitive airways and the ETT is the gold standard for a definitive airway. I am always going to give at least one attempt for an ETT before going for a king, and I'm damn sure not going to cut someone unless I have absolutely no other choice.

This is a terrible way to approach airway management. It's a cookie-cutter mentality that doesn't use any critical thinking and is the exact opposite of what should be taught. Most paramedics seem to be taught to think this way though, and it is probably a direct result of the lack of experience that I address below.


On a personal note, I feel the reason our overall percentages are so low can be attributed to paramedic mills nationwide that each crank out hundreds of paramedics annually with no standardized method to ensure that students even had a solid grasp on this relatively simple skill.

Airway management is only simple until it's not. Sure, it usually goes well and most patients are not a difficult intubation. But I'm not sure how anyone can read the literature on paramedic intubation and then say with a straight face that it is a "simple skill". If it were so simple, the research would look a whole lot different, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The reason overall percentages are so low is obvious, really: paramedics receive very minimal initial training in airway management, and then go on to do it only occasionally. That's not how you get good at anything. I'd argue that it takes most people 100 actual, live intubations to reach a novice level of experience, and at least three times that, maybe even four or five times that, using different tools and techniques, to become an expert. Very few paramedics have that type of background, so the only ones who are really, truly good at it are the very few who do somehow gain that much experience, plus the relatively small percentage who for some reason just have the aptitude to master the skill with much less experience than it takes most.


Lastly, I find the focus on first attempt success rate to be inappropriate. First, I think it puts undue pressure on that first tube, but most importantly there are just times when you get in there and it's not what you expected.

The focus on first-attempt success comes from the fact that each successive attempt is less and less likely to be successful.

Why do you ever need to "change" things on subsequent attempts? Why not just do it right the first time?

The point behind the "first attempt should be your best attempt" approach is that whatever changes you are making should have been done before the first attempt was made. Whatever tool you had to use on your second or third attempt to finally get it, you should have just used on your first attempt.

Take the time to do your positioning CORRECTLY before the first attempt. Use the right blade and the right tube on your first attempt. Use the bougie on your first attempt. Use VL if you have it - yes, on the first attempt. A prehospital RSI is not the time to screw around.
 
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There is just so much about your mentality that I don't agree with that I'm just going to bow out.
 
Why not discuss professionally instead?

I believe I pretty clearly articulated my point of view and then you shared yours. I think our views are fundamentally very different and I find it unlikely that we will come together in our opinions.

I will say this, I find your ideology that you will choose right the first time, every time, to be dangerous. In my opinion, mindsets like this can and do lead to "vapor lock" in the event that your assessment and tool choice was wrong. As I said, the ability to react to the unexpected is far more important than the theory that you can always choose correctly the first time.

We do agree on one thing, an RSI is not the time to screw around.
 
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I will say this, I find your ideology that you will choose right the first time, every time, to be dangerous. In my opinion, mindsets like this can and do lead to "vapor lock" in the event that your assessment and tool choice was wrong. As I said, the ability to react to the unexpected is far more important than the theory that you can always choose correctly the first time.

The research clearly shows that in the ED, each intubation attempt is less likely to be successful than the one before it. That isn't my opinion; that is fact. I can think of no reason why it wouldn't apply to the pre-hospital realm as well.

With that in mind, how could it possibly be dangerous to take steps to make your first attempt your best attempt?

That doesn't mean that you'll always be successful on your first attempt, of course. It means that, if you can be confident that you've done everything you could on the first try, then you can leave that attempt knowing that it's time to seriously consider an alternative to DL. That's the opposite of "vapor lock". Rather, it gives you mental permission to move on, rather than continuing to tweak meaningless factors in order to justify essentially trying the same thing over and over.

It sounds as though you overestimate your ability to "react to the unexpected". If your first and second attempt don't go well, then what do you do? You probably reach for VL or an SGA. Why not just do that initially, then?
 
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Well jeeze... In that case why not just do a surgical cric on everyone. :/

Less invasive to most invasive. A difficult intubation in the ER? I've yet to see a doc break out that cric kit.... DL or VL.... Both are effective. Provider errors will happen inevitably at times, which is why being able to quickly adapt your tactic is a strong quality to have.
 
A difficult intubation in the ER? I've yet to see a doc break out that cric kit.... DL or VL.... Both are effective.

But how many times have you seen an ER doc butcher a few airway attempts before calling Anesthesia?
 
Well jeeze... In that case why not just do a surgical cric on everyone. :/

No, that doesn't even begin to follow from what I wrote.

Less invasive to most invasive. A difficult intubation in the ER? I've yet to see a doc break out that cric kit.... DL or VL.... Both are effective. Provider errors will happen inevitably at times, which is why being able to quickly adapt your tactic is a strong quality to have.

So you consider proper positioning, blade/ETT preparation, and the use of adjuncts such as VL or a bougie to be "invasive"?
 
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But how many times have you seen an ER doc butcher a few airway attempts before calling Anesthesia?

Lol. Touché.
 
Wow, threads evolve. And toes tend to become a tad long.
 
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