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Interesting questions about "ObamaCare"
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PapaBear434
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Rant ahead.
Yeah, I saw this thing on Fark.com already. You couldn't get more bias questions if it was GW Bush and **** Cheney themselves asking them. Townhall is about two steps above "Free Republic" when it comes to their credibility.
Look, conservatives, you've already won. The spineless Democrats backed the heck out and are voting to remove the public option from the current plan. You know, the entire freaking POINT of the plan. It's effectively going to force everyone to get insurance, but with nothing to pay for it outside of the prerequisite "tax cuts" the Right loves to swing like a do-all fix. So you can stop calling it ObamaCare, you can stop pretending that you are denying coverage to people because you actually care about them, and you can stop rubbing the noses of liberals like me in it.
You won. Greed always does in this country, it seems. People don't vote for what's best for the country, but only for what's best for them.
/is covered by wife's Tricare Prime via the US Navy
//the big evil government run health care seems to work well for us
Yeah, I saw this thing on Fark.com already. You couldn't get more bias questions if it was GW Bush and **** Cheney themselves asking them. Townhall is about two steps above "Free Republic" when it comes to their credibility.
Look, conservatives, you've already won. The spineless Democrats backed the heck out and are voting to remove the public option from the current plan. You know, the entire freaking POINT of the plan. It's effectively going to force everyone to get insurance, but with nothing to pay for it outside of the prerequisite "tax cuts" the Right loves to swing like a do-all fix. So you can stop calling it ObamaCare, you can stop pretending that you are denying coverage to people because you actually care about them, and you can stop rubbing the noses of liberals like me in it.
You won. Greed always does in this country, it seems. People don't vote for what's best for the country, but only for what's best for them.
/is covered by wife's Tricare Prime via the US Navy
//the big evil government run health care seems to work well for us
JPINFV
Gadfly
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So remind me. Where in the constitution is the government impowered to run health care?
Oh, wait. It isn't there.
Rant:
Liberals. We get it. You won the presidency. That really doesn't mean that you can do anything and everything you want, especially if you want to keep control. Not everyone wants the government running their lives. Government is NOT the answer.
Oh, wait. It isn't there.
Rant:
Liberals. We get it. You won the presidency. That really doesn't mean that you can do anything and everything you want, especially if you want to keep control. Not everyone wants the government running their lives. Government is NOT the answer.
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daedalus
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I agree with number one in FFEMT's link. I am a liberal democrat, but I think we should test the waters and reform medicare first, make it a testbed for national health coverage.
The rest of the article is basically crap that can be explained away.
firecoins
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well medicare isn't working too well. Medicaid isn't working too well. Social Security isn't working too well. The Dept. of VA isn't working too well.
And the insurance companies aren't working too well.
Summit
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Ask a doctors office how much fun it is to deal with Tricare... they'd refuse tricare patients if they could.
Summit
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Why have med insurance and pharma profits been through the roof while our insurance and health care costs are through the roof but care delivered has remained relatively constant?
Presently:
55% of Americans privately insured (personal or workplace)
15% of Americans uninsured
30% of Americans insured by US Government (25% of the US is Medicare and/or Medicaid... and around another 5% are covered by the Feds for other reasons)
I was surprised by how many are insured by .gov
So .gov pays very low for their share, the uninsured often don't pay or get absolutely raped, and the half of American that is privately insured get raped by high premiums and copays. The hospitals and healthcare workers get raped by having massive amounts of time and money go into billing, paperwork, and collection. Meanwhile, .gov is ripping them off. The insurance companies have massive amounts of money go to the people whose job it is to deny claims and the people who manage them.
Solutions:
1. END DIRECT TO CONSUMER PRESCRIPTION ADVERTISING BY PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES. This used to be illegal. Allowing it was a terrible mistake by the government and it happened because pharmaceutical lobbyists paid for the change to convince people to buy more drugs they usually don't need.
2. I am all about innovation creating better products and profits as well as profits motivating innovative business practices to benefit everyone. However, health insurance companies don't create anything and their business practice innovations only involve screwing their customers, charging everyone, kicking out any customer they can when they try to use the product, and denying care whenever possible simply to boost profit gains. That is the time where the government can step in and do some regulation.
3. If we created national healthcare, it would be the biggest such service on the entire planet by a factor of 5. Find me a national healthcare system out there that is not in the red. Then, look how abysmal our government care is so far and how it is hemorrhaging money, mismanaging payments, and resulting in poor care. How is making it bigger going to be better if what we have right now can not cover the approximately 30% of the population that is under government coverage (bet most of you didn't know that many people are currently covered by the government). So let's have them fix what they are doing now first.
Presently:
55% of Americans privately insured (personal or workplace)
15% of Americans uninsured
30% of Americans insured by US Government (25% of the US is Medicare and/or Medicaid... and around another 5% are covered by the Feds for other reasons)
I was surprised by how many are insured by .gov
So .gov pays very low for their share, the uninsured often don't pay or get absolutely raped, and the half of American that is privately insured get raped by high premiums and copays. The hospitals and healthcare workers get raped by having massive amounts of time and money go into billing, paperwork, and collection. Meanwhile, .gov is ripping them off. The insurance companies have massive amounts of money go to the people whose job it is to deny claims and the people who manage them.
Solutions:
1. END DIRECT TO CONSUMER PRESCRIPTION ADVERTISING BY PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES. This used to be illegal. Allowing it was a terrible mistake by the government and it happened because pharmaceutical lobbyists paid for the change to convince people to buy more drugs they usually don't need.
2. I am all about innovation creating better products and profits as well as profits motivating innovative business practices to benefit everyone. However, health insurance companies don't create anything and their business practice innovations only involve screwing their customers, charging everyone, kicking out any customer they can when they try to use the product, and denying care whenever possible simply to boost profit gains. That is the time where the government can step in and do some regulation.
3. If we created national healthcare, it would be the biggest such service on the entire planet by a factor of 5. Find me a national healthcare system out there that is not in the red. Then, look how abysmal our government care is so far and how it is hemorrhaging money, mismanaging payments, and resulting in poor care. How is making it bigger going to be better if what we have right now can not cover the approximately 30% of the population that is under government coverage (bet most of you didn't know that many people are currently covered by the government). So let's have them fix what they are doing now first.
Let me throw my two cents into the pot.
Healthcare (as we see it) is a basic right that the Government must provide; regardless of your ability to pay for it. Soladarity is the basic principle; if, through my tax, I can pay for somebody else who can't pay to get the treatment they need then that's basically why we do it! Would you not expect somebody to help you if you were unable to help yourself?
If you are stupid enough to believe that by the Government running the health system it's going to mean we have to look under the bed for Communists again or that the big, bad, evil Government is going to take away all your rights and make you do what they say need beating with a very large, very heavy object because you're an idiot!
However I must partially agree; here in New Zealand the Government runs the health system and maybe it's just here, maybe not, but the system doesn't run that great. I'll give the Conservative's a bit of fodder here. We have systemic problems when it comes to recruiting and retaining doctors and nurses (most of our NZ trained MDs and RNs have skipped the country for better wages and better working conditions) and our waiting lists stretch around the block and over the hill. Our last Government spent $6 billion dollars on healthcare and I don't see much improvement!
So I'm interested to know; what exactly is it about free healthcare that has y'all full of ants in your pants? I suppose to an extent I can understand the "... but you haven't contributed anything to the pot so why should we pay?" argument but let me ask you this if that's the problem: Does the fire department ask for money before putting your house out? Does the library ask you to pay before you can use it? Does the school district turn your kids away because you've got no income? If you take your dog for a walk at the park does security check your name against a list to see if can use it? .... I'm betting the answer to all these is "NO" because they are funded through a tax base (be it local, state or federal) .... so why is health-care so different??
Healthcare (as we see it) is a basic right that the Government must provide; regardless of your ability to pay for it. Soladarity is the basic principle; if, through my tax, I can pay for somebody else who can't pay to get the treatment they need then that's basically why we do it! Would you not expect somebody to help you if you were unable to help yourself?
If you are stupid enough to believe that by the Government running the health system it's going to mean we have to look under the bed for Communists again or that the big, bad, evil Government is going to take away all your rights and make you do what they say need beating with a very large, very heavy object because you're an idiot!
However I must partially agree; here in New Zealand the Government runs the health system and maybe it's just here, maybe not, but the system doesn't run that great. I'll give the Conservative's a bit of fodder here. We have systemic problems when it comes to recruiting and retaining doctors and nurses (most of our NZ trained MDs and RNs have skipped the country for better wages and better working conditions) and our waiting lists stretch around the block and over the hill. Our last Government spent $6 billion dollars on healthcare and I don't see much improvement!
So I'm interested to know; what exactly is it about free healthcare that has y'all full of ants in your pants? I suppose to an extent I can understand the "... but you haven't contributed anything to the pot so why should we pay?" argument but let me ask you this if that's the problem: Does the fire department ask for money before putting your house out? Does the library ask you to pay before you can use it? Does the school district turn your kids away because you've got no income? If you take your dog for a walk at the park does security check your name against a list to see if can use it? .... I'm betting the answer to all these is "NO" because they are funded through a tax base (be it local, state or federal) .... so why is health-care so different??
Shishkabob
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This is what many liberals miss;
Most (many) of us conservatives want to help the uninsured. But it is NOT the federal goverments responsibility. We also know that it will eventually happen: it's a forgone conclusion that at some point there will be universal healthcare in the US.
Governor Rick Perry here in Texas has said that if this gets passed, he'll fight the 10th admendment (states rights) all the way to the Supreme Court.
Most (many) of us conservatives want to help the uninsured. But it is NOT the federal goverments responsibility. We also know that it will eventually happen: it's a forgone conclusion that at some point there will be universal healthcare in the US.
Governor Rick Perry here in Texas has said that if this gets passed, he'll fight the 10th admendment (states rights) all the way to the Supreme Court.
JPINFV
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It's not free and the idea that it's "free" might be why you're having issues keeping physicians and nurses.
It's called taxes, and yes they do. Furthermore, there are a few cases every year in rural communities with volunteer subscription based fire departments letting houses burn once they confirm that everyone is out because the owner isn't a subscriber. You don't pay, you don't get service and you can't just pay at the time you need service and not contribute in all of the years that you didn't.
Exactly. Being paid by taxes means it's free is wrong. Why isn't food provided by government to all citizens based off of taxes? Water? Those are surely more of a necessity than health care yet the government doesn't provide food and charges for water based on amount used and not a flat fee.
firecoins
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based on the evidence and the bills floating in Congress, the government is by no means going to do better. It appears they will do worse.
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Hockey
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You know they say 2012 will be the end of the world...
The rate we're heading, I can see it happening
The rate we're heading, I can see it happening
8jimi8
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Hockey
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reaper
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Tricare and the VA are perfect examples of government health care. What a shame.
R.O.P.
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I've got to agree w/ reaper. If there is to be broad support for government-managed healthcare, they should start by managing the healthcare they already have more effectively!
PapaBear434
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He's the same ding bat who threatened succession over taking stimulus money which included funding for fighting epidemic level diseases, and then immediately took emergency federal funding to help fight the swine flu.
Fine example of a conservative mind, there.
PapaBear434
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How many patients have you folks had that refused treatment, even when you KNOW they could really use it, because they don't want to be saddled with the bill? How many times have you seen someone with an advanced infection because they didn't get treatment earlier because they didn't have insurance or they didn't want to be charged the exorbitant co-pay?
Seriously, how can anyone in EMS be opposed to covering everyone in the US with care? How can any thinking person not say "Hey, we are supposedly the best, richest country in the world, and yet we are the only industrialized nation who doesn't have a universal coverage for it's citizens" and yet in the same breath say that it's impossible and not able to be pulled off? And if you forget the untrue FUD, you would see that those other countries love their systems outside of a few isolated cases, while almost anyone without huge coffers of cash at their disposal gets screwed in ours.
How can people be so obtuse to rational arguments, so oblivious to facts, and so callous to your fellow man? It's not going to be a foreign army or terrorists that destroy America, it's going to be greed and willful ignorance in the electorate that takes us down from within.
Seriously, how can anyone in EMS be opposed to covering everyone in the US with care? How can any thinking person not say "Hey, we are supposedly the best, richest country in the world, and yet we are the only industrialized nation who doesn't have a universal coverage for it's citizens" and yet in the same breath say that it's impossible and not able to be pulled off? And if you forget the untrue FUD, you would see that those other countries love their systems outside of a few isolated cases, while almost anyone without huge coffers of cash at their disposal gets screwed in ours.
How can people be so obtuse to rational arguments, so oblivious to facts, and so callous to your fellow man? It's not going to be a foreign army or terrorists that destroy America, it's going to be greed and willful ignorance in the electorate that takes us down from within.
usafmedic45
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Agreed, but people on both sides of the aisle are like that- it's just that the conservatives tend to dig in their heels a little more over really stupid crap that really doesn't matter all that much...the trick is keeping either party from having too much power so that the competing gaggles of psychotic morons cancel one another out. Or once you get enough of them together, hopefully a sufficient number of them will be moderate and willing to come to a consensus.
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